D&D 5E With the Holy Trinity out, let's take stock of 5E

[Mouseferatu]

I dont understand the dichotomy here - dont stories inherently involve challenges of various kinds? The narrative doesn't write itself - even in a 1e deathtrap dungeon.

Well, sure. But I wasn't the one who advocated eliminating the gaming conventions that encouraged the storytelling aspect.

The game needs both, absolutely, but it should be up to the individual table to decide which aspect they prefer to emphasize.

 

[Blackbrrd]

That takes me back. I did a similar thing with Neopaint on an Atari ST linked by composite video lead to a 26" CRT TV when I was running Shadows in Traveller (for the zillionth time).

Anyway… I don't have any of the books yet but I will get them; I've seen enough that I like in the previews WotC has helpfully splashed around the internoodle. I think 5e is a worthy edition (and yes, I've played and run it occasionally from the first play-tests to the release of the free basic rules) but it hasn't persuaded me to give up on 3e. That remains, for now at least, my D&D of choice.

I have only tried low-level 5e, but from what I have read, I think going from 3e to 5e will mostly seem like an upgrade. I played several campaigns that ended at 11th, 12th and 18th level and all of them struggled with combat speed/buff time. 5e looks to handle this quite a lot better. You also get flatter math when it comes to attack bonuses/defenses (bounded accuracy) which makes life a lot easier for the DM, mostly due to the much more linear scaling of monsters as opposed to the quadratic scaling from earlier editions.

What 5e doesn't have that 3e has, is 150 splat books. Personally, I like it. The last 3e campaign I ran only used the 3.5 PHB as a player resource and some house rules. With that in mind, 5e actually comes out on top.

What I like best about 5e is probably how easy it to run as a DM.

 

[pemerton]

In 4E you couldn't use house rules, or at least it was difficult to fit them into the tightly woven rules set.

This is a bit bizarre to me. For my first session of the game, I worked with a player to come up with a house-ruled superior halberd for his PC (the only published option of a superior polearm was a spear).

In (I think) my second session I used a house rule from Keith Baker about crits and action points in skill challenges. (Elements of this were later semi-formalised by DMG2.)

The invoker/wizard in my game is a Sage of Ages, and the abilities of that epic destiny that (as written) affect only arcane magic also affect his divine magic. I also tweaked another player's epic destiny to allow an additional minor ability (a language, I think) in place of an ability that duplicated one he already had. For two PCs I also house-ruled themes - one a variant of the Primordial Adepts in Heroes of the Elemental Chaos, another an undead hunter that is its own thing.

Those are just some of the house rules I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[Neonchameleon]

In 4E you couldn't use house rules, or at least it was difficult to fit them into the tightly woven rules set.

I don't understand why "Bad house rules stick out like a sore thumb rather than bite you in play" is anything other than a positive. Especially as I've always house ruled - but by working with the system rather than against it.

 

[Mercurius]

Of course you can house rule in 4E, it is just more difficult than in some other editions because of how tightly designed the game is.

I didn't say it was a negative, by the way.

 

[Imaro]

4e just wasn't a game my group ended up enjoying. My group never really warmed to the skill challenge rules even after the math was fixed and they were revised numerous times, we liked a more organic feel to exploration and events and thus didn't need or want the artificial constraints of SC for pacing so they offered little reason for us to use them...The hour + combats of 4e wore our game down and stalled the overall progression of our campaign to the point that it felt like the only thing getting done each week during our 4 hour session was at best a little roleplay/exploration and then hours of tactical, battlemat-based, combat, and finally as a DM (contrary to others experiences) the encounter design was just as wonky as previous editions once the PC's got higher up in level, in fact, IMO, it didn't work well at all for determining an actual challenging encounter.

After my group's disappointment with 4e, 5e seems to be the edition that has brought us back to what we want D&D to feel and play like. For the first time every player in the group has purchased and read a PHB and 2 other players have purchased the DMG and the MM because they are interested in DM'ing... We've had a game going since the PHB came out and the PC's are now 3rd level and as far as I can see 5e is hitting all the right buttons for us. As a DM 5e just feels more liberating and flexible than 4e, and the classes all have interesting mechanics without falling into the overwhelming number of "powers" problem 4e was prone to.

The biggest complaint to date I've seen about 5e is the lack of interesting things for monsters to do... but I'm just not seeing it, I've compared monsters from the 4e MV and the 5e MM and I am not seeing this gulf between the two in mechanical things fro monsters to do. I'd say my only complaint is that sometimes I do wish the monsters had all their abilities in their stat-blocks, but it's a minor complaint at most and I'm actually warming to picking specific spells for certain monsters as a way to customize them.


Sorry but I don't see it as a remastered 2e (nothing against 2e personally) but I do see it as a greatest hits edition... It's taken most of the things I like from previous editions without going overboard into what I felt was the negative aspects of each of those editions.

 

[howandwhy99]

What 5E mechanics are you thinking of, specifically?

All the check mechanics of course. Anything where the DM is mistakenly expected to improvise at the table.

EDIT: You would never do that in Mastermind, it should be taken back out of D&D.

 

[TerraDave]

Drama in a story is driven by conflicts and challenges faced by the protagonist, where what happens is often very different then what they expect.

But anyways...

....
I would be pleased as punch to see a real embrace of 2e's style of lore and real in-depth presentation of flavor rather than the 3e/4e favoring of rules content.

Its a divisive issue, even (especially?) back then.

1E had flavor. It was parsimonious...but it was there. The 2E core books where relatively dry and style free. So where 3E and 4E, which also took a smaller, flatter, less inspiring approach in general. (here is your little vale and your few little gods). 2E and 4E did have good monster books, in each case a redo of the first take. And yes, for 2E, the supplements were often accompanied with voluminous "flavor" that tended to be of mixed quality and was greeted in a mixed fashion.

Skipping right to 5E, they split the difference. They go pretty far with flavor and world elements, and of course the DMG goes far in telling you how to do your own. Its more then 1E, though not that out of step with it, and more then 2E core rules.

Keeping in mind that--just as unexpected challenges are key to story--verbiage and loquaciousness are often the enemies of good writing. I think they have struck the right balance with 5E so far.

But if people want some supplements full of story on certain settings, sure, why not. No one says I have to buy them.

 

[TerraDave]

All the check mechanics of course. Anything where the DM is mistakenly expected to improvise at the table.

EDIT: You would never do that in Mastermind, it should be taken back out of D&D.

I am sensing a contradiction.

If the DMG has an abundance of precise rules for the DM...one way or another those will move from behind to in front of the screen.

And of course early D&D was all about the DM improvising.

 

[aramis erak]

I dont understand the dichotomy here - dont stories inherently involve challenges of various kinds? The narrative doesn't write itself - even in a 1e deathtrap dungeon.


And BTW Greedo clearly did not fully utilize the social and exploration options of his milieu.

the Story arises from the play, not the play from the story. Unless you DM is breaking "Wheaton's Law."