Wizard: Essential Class or Scared Cow

Plane Sailing said:
I disagree... if wizards hadn't been part of the zeitgeist, they wouldn't have got into D&D anyway in all likelihood. There might have been more wizard novels after D&D hit the mainstream, but that would just be the result of the glut of D&D based novels that appeared.

Wizard of Earthsea (and related books) by LeGuin is yet another example of a magic using hero. The Traveller in Black by John Brunner is another - and those are just off the top of my head, I'm sure there are lots more.

Oh, I don't deny that you do see wizards as the protagonist in novels before 1980. However, they are pretty much in the minority of wizard characters within novels. And certainly the best known wizards are not the protagonist. While authors like Moorcock and Le Guin have stories about wizards (or at least close enough), they are pretty much dwarfed by the number of novels about guys with swords.

Wizards got included because you needed an artillery piece, not because of their iconic status in fantasy. The iconic wizard certainly wasn't a young adventurer, despite a few notable exceptions.
 

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T Foster and others have noted the insperation. Which does include the pulp fantasy of the 20's and 30's. Lots of powerful wizards as the main charecter, though, like many D&D PCs, they may not be very nice.

But, to the title of the thread. "Wizards", whatever. "Magic-Users" that makes things go boom. Essential for D&D. I think the amped up magic greatly helped the appeal of the game, even if it a uneasy fit with some other fantasy fiction or legend.

As an aside, the boom part is also pretty easy to deal with in game. The game breaking stuff is the stuff from legend and myth. Flight, extremely powerful charms and illusions, instant death effects, shapechanging, real wahoo stuff like time stop and wishes...who needs a fire ball when you've got all that.
 


Hussar said:
Wizards got included because you needed an artillery piece, not because of their iconic status in fantasy. The iconic wizard certainly wasn't a young adventurer, despite a few notable exceptions.
Gasp. Harry Potter is an artillery peice!

It is an iconic status in fantasy now. Now that we have all that neat CG...
 

Delta said:
My attitude is that the in-game language and roles should be exactly the same as the rules-based language we use.

Ugh! So then, in your games, every person from an uncivilized culture has to have levels in the Barbarian class or they aren't really barbarians? Every single knight has to have levels in the Knight class? People go around calling themselves Rogues? People make a distinction between Warriors and Fighters?

-"No sir, I am not a warrior, I am a Fighter!"-

People refer to themselves as Fighter/Rogue/Wizards when describing their professions? People refer to their alignments, levels, and hit points, and discus their +1 longswords and the like?!

That seems very... odd, to me. Odd, restrictive, and making for very stilted dialog. Do the characters in your games really talk like the characters in Order of the Stick?!

Usually, people in favor of disconnecting the two are people who'd prefer to dismiss the whole class-based system in its entirety (and are engaged in a project to break down the whole system).

Where on Earth did you ever get this idea?! I am fully in favor of the class system for D&D and would never want to see it go, but I would never even think of restricting my in-character speech to game terminology. In my games, and the games I play in, common people mostly have no idea about the differences between Wizards and Sorcerers and use the terms interchangeably, or call them mages. Common people, and a hell of a lot of adventurers with no knowledge of the planes, use the terms Demon and Devil interchangeably.

I am very curious as to where you get the notion that those of us who would never use game mechanics terminology in-character (which includes everyone I have ever gamed with) want to get rid of the class based system.
 

Aaron L said:
Ugh! So then, in your games, every person from an uncivilized culture has to have levels in the Barbarian class or they aren't really barbarians? Every single knight has to have levels in the Knight class? People go around calling themselves Rogues? People make a distinction between Warriors and Fighters?
Hmmm... and idea is forming...
Aaron L said:
People refer to themselves as Fighter/Rogue/Wizards when describing their professions? People refer to their alignments, levels, and hit points, and discus their +1 longswords and the like?!
I can... almost see it...
Aaron L said:
That seems very... odd, to me. Odd, restrictive, and making for very stilted dialog. Do the characters in your games really talk like the characters in Order of the Stick?!
Ooo... I can run OOTS! Wow! What a great idea! You rock.
Aaron L said:
Where on Earth did you ever get this idea?! I am fully in favor of the class system for D&D and would never want to see it go, but I would never even think of restricting my in-character speech to game terminology.
I will... in another campaign.
Aaron L said:
I am very curious as to where you get the notion that those of us who would never use game mechanics terminology in-character (which includes everyone I have ever gamed with) want to get rid of the class based system.
Where does that put me? I want to keep classes (it's the physics of DnD's weird universe...it's quaint) and use game mechanics terminology in-character. A humorous-serious OOTS campaign. Something to think about.

Oh, by the way, Delta is right if it's an OOTS universe.
 

JDJblatherings said:
The wizard archtype transcends genres, languages and cultures. It will outlast our civilization. It's here to stay.

D&D without wizards (or sorcerors, or MU's or arcane artillery) simply isn't D&D.

But you acknowledge that the term refers as much to Merlin the Druid, Gandalf the divine agent and Roger Bacon the Expert as it does to the DnD wizard

robberbaron said:
I always thought Gandalf's most spectacular trick was beating a Balrog to death.

He set fire to a load of trees and wolves.
He broke Saruman's staff (ranged touch attack, I guess. Maybe Shatter).
He collapsed the Bridge of Khazad-Dum, stopping the Balrog getting past (didn't you get that far in the book/film?)

Okay I was being slightly facetious in my description of gandalfs magic but that doesn't alter the fact that he was an outsider and his firebased powers might have been supernatural abilities rather than spells per se. Also beating the balrog makes a good case for fighter not DnD wizard
 

(meant as humor)

I dare you to go and tell Hermione - a first class wizard if ever there was one - that she is a sacred cow, to her face. Or even a scared cow.
I dare you. Go on. Go on ...
 


Tonguez said:
But you acknowledge that the term refers as much to Merlin the Druid, Gandalf the divine agent and Roger Bacon the Expert as it does to the DnD wizard

Okay I was being slightly facetious in my description of gandalfs magic but that doesn't alter the fact that he was an outsider and his firebased powers might have been supernatural abilities rather than spells per se. Also beating the balrog makes a good case for fighter not DnD wizard
Gandalf is part of the Lord of the Ring RPG system. Not part of DnD. (Yes I know OT)

Merlin however was published in Deities and Demigods and has ADnD stats:

He is a 14th level Druid.
15th Magic User
10th Illusionist
Psionic Ability 300
Attack modes BCE
Defense modes All
 

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