Wizard/Sorcerer Parent Class

[pyk]

Instead of having those Feats, let's see if this works out better. The spell abilities are class abilities, and if you make them Feats, then anyone can get them, by the way. Anyhow, here's how to keep the spells to a class feature, and have some limiting factors to both spontaneous casting, and prepared casting.

Each Level, the Mage may choose a number of Spontaneous spells per day he may cast, OR a number of Prepared spells per day he may cast. This is a level specific number, and a lower level is not a prerequisite to get a higher level.

First: 5 Cantrips, 3 First level (Spontaneous) -or- 3 Cantrips, 1 First Level (Prepared)
Second: 1 Cantrip, 1 First level (Spontaneous) -or- 1 Cantrips, 1 First Level (Prepared)
Third: 1 First (Spontaneous) -or- 1 Second Level (Prepared)
Fourth: 1 First, 3 Second (Spontaneous) -or- 1 First, 1 Second (Prepared)
Fifth: 1 Second (Spontaneous) -or- 1 Third (Prepared)
Sixth: 1 Second, 3 Third (Spontaneous) -or- 1 Second, 1 Third (Prepared)
Seventh: 1 Second, 1 Third (Spontaneous) -or- 1 First, 1 Fourth (Prepared)
Eighth: 1 Third, 3 Fourth (Spontaneous) -or- 1 Third, 1 Fourth (Prepared)
Ninth: 1 Third, 1 Fourth (Spontaneous) -or- 1 Second, 1 Fifth (Prepared)
Tenth: 1 Fourth, 3 Fifth (Spontaneous) -or- 1 Fourth, 1 Fifth (Prepared)
Eleventh: 1 Fourth, 1 Fifth (Spontaneous) -or- 1 Third, 1 Sixth (Prepared)
Twelfth: 1 Fifth, 3 Sixth (Spontaneous) -or- 1 Fifth, 1 Sixth (Prepared)
Thirteen: 1 Fifth, 1 Sixth (Spontaneous) -or- 1 Fourth, 1 Seventh (Prepared)
Fourteen: 1 Sixth, 3 Seventh (Spontaneous) -or- 1 Sixth, 1 Seventh(Prepared)
Fiftennth: 1 Sixth, 1 Seventh (Spontaneous) -or- 1 Fifth, 1 Eighth (Prepared)
Sixteenth: 1 Seventh, 3 Eighth (Spontaneous) -or- 1 Seventh, 1 Eighth (Prepared)
Seventeen: 1 Seventh, 1 Eighth (Spontaneous) -or- 1 Sixth, 1 Ninth repared)
Eighteenth: 1 Eighth, 3 Ninth (Spontaneous) -or- 1 Eighth, 1 Ninth (Prepared)
Nineteen: 1 Eighth, 1 Ninth (Spontaneous) -or- 1 Seventh, 1 Ninth (Prepared)
Twentyth: 2 Ninth (Spontaneous) -or- 1 Eigth, 1 Ninth (Prepared)


This way the most the Mage can cast is 5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5, which is the difference between Sorcerer and Wizard, and only allows for one prepared spell per spell level. Want more prepared spells per level? Give up more spontaneous spells per level, and vice-versa.

Spells known, well, I'll think about that.

 

[rkanodia]

Probably not - I think the big worry is that prepared casters can choose their spells from a virtually unlimited source (their spellbooks), whereas spontaneous casters can only cast spells from a very limited list. It's important to prevent spontaneous casters from casting spontaneously from an unlimited source. I tried to preserve the limitations on spontaneous casters by limiting spontaneous casting strictly to mastered spells (which can only be gained by expenditure of feats). I believe that your proposal was very similar in this regard.

Again, I think I've been unclear. Under my system, there is no 'unlimited' spellbook - even Wizards have a limit to the number of spells they can have down on paper.

Hmm. I think I may have an even system than 'preparation points'/'spontaneity points'. Here's another go. By the way, all of this is ignoring cantrips for now, not sure what to do about them.

Spells per day: Add your levels of Wizard and Sorceror, and use the Wizard spells per day chart. You get one bonus spell per day at each spell level which you can cast and is equal to or less than your Sorceror level. You get an additional bonus spell per day at each spell level which is equal to or less than half your Sorceror level. Bonus Sorceror spell slots may only be used for spontaneous casting.

Spells Known: Each time a character gains a level of Sorceror, they gain two 'innate' spells known. : These may be of any level equal to or less than half their Wizard and Sorceror levels combined (exception: a character may take first level spells for their first character level, even though 1 rounds down to 0), and a character may not have more innate spells at a given spell level than at the spell level below. Each time a character gains a level of Wizard, they may immediately add two spells to their spellbook, with the restriction that a spellbook may not contain more spells at a given level than at the level below. A character may scribe spells as per PHB, but no character's spellbook can ever contain more than seven times their Wizard level in spells.

Spell Preparation: At the start of each day, a character with a spellbook may prepare spells out of their spellbook as per the PHB Wizard (note: innate spells may not be prepared, although a character who wished could learn a spell innately AND have it in their spellbook, although it would count in each category).

Casting: Prepared spells are cast exactly as normal. However, a character may spend a prepared spell (or empty spell slot, if he is unable to prepare any spells at a given level) to spontaneously cast any spell (of equal or lower level) he knows innately. When a character chooses to cast spontaneously, follow all the rules for spontaneous casting.

So, here's how this works out.

Pure Sorceror: looks very similar to his PHB counterpart. No prepared casting whatsoever. Gets a total of 6 extra spells known over the course of his career. Ultimately, his spells per day looks exactly like the PHB sorceror, but the acquisition is a bit wonky - sometimes he is a bit ahead, sometimes a fair amount behind. This could use some work.

Pure Wizard: virtually identical to his PHB counterpart. No spontaneous casting whatsoever. Gets slightly gypped, because he has an upper limit on the size of his spellbook for no return. Not sure what to do about that.

Mixed classes: A bit more of a penalty, and a little less benefit, for multiclassing. Wizards who want to spontaneously cast are giving up a large number of (potentially high-level) spells for only a few, low-level spontaneous-casting options - and a player will have to take at LEAST five levels of sorceror to be able to spontaneous-cast a single ninth-level spell, and two levels of wizard to be able to prepare a single ninth-level spell. One worry I still have is that it will be hard to make it seem like, assuming a Wizard does not have a bastage DM who will make it hard to scribe 9th-level scrolls, how do we make it such that a Wizard doesn't just say 'heck with it, I've got blank pages like Alaska has ice, let's just take a few levels of Sorceror and pick up spontaneous fireball'. And especially, how do we do that without making pure Wizards feel like they've been robbed?

About class synergy: Personally, I don't mind a little synergy; after all, the warrior classes get beautiful stacking in their most important attributes (HP and BAB), so I don't see anything wrong with a multiclass caster getting to keep the full 'spells per day' chart, as long as they are making sacrifices elsewhere. For instance, a Sorceror who wants a bigger spellbook will be giving up bonus spells per day, and missing out on precious choices for high-level spontaneous casting. Or how about this, let's compare a Wiz10/Sor10 under my system, to a Wiz20 and Sor20, and see if there is a problem:

Spells per day: 4 prepared spells per day at each level, with two extra spontaneous slots at 1-5 and one extra spontaneous slot at 6-9. So, he has more total spell slots than a Wiz20, and fewer than a Sor20. Sounds good so far.

Spontaneous Casting: Fewer slots at the high levels, but the big thing is choice. He only has 3 spells to spontaneously cast at levels 1 and 2, and 2 spells at levels 3-9. Compare that to a pure Sorceror, with 5 spells at level 1 through 4, and 4 spells at level 5-9.

Prepared Casting: Same spell slots as the Wiz20, but with half as many spell choices availible.

Feats: Two bonus Wizard feats.

Hmm. Well, it probably is still a little more powerful. The problem is in choosing the order in which you level up carefully, so that you can get better option in choosing your innate spells by waiting to higher level. Any thoughts on how to fix that? The only thing I'm not willing to budge on is delaying access to higher-level spells for multiclass Wizard/Sorceror. Knowing fewer of them, and having restrictions on the way they cast them (prepared vs spontaneous) is fine, but in the long run, a pure caster who is behind the other casters in spell levels is going to suck, and a character who really wants to do 'flexibility in exchange for spell level' can already play Mystic Theurge. And of course, now I've wasted half an hour, and I didn't even keep my promise that I'd go to another thread.

 

[alkabong]

The spell abilities are class abilities, and if you make them Feats, then anyone can get them, by the way.

That's a good point! I should re-word my original feats to class abilities.

Each Level, the Mage may choose a number of Spontaneous spells per day he may cast, OR a number of Prepared spells per day he may cast. This is a level specific number, and a lower level is not a prerequisite to get a higher level.

An intriguing suggestion. I like it because it follows the core 3.5 rules very nicely - you can get both spontaneous and prepared casting without straying too far. The thing I don't like is how inflexible it is - you can't really change how many spells are prepared/spontaneous - it's set in stone (until next level when you can make minor changes). I was imagining something more flexible. Then again, by making this so limiting, you really don't need to sacrifice feats or use some other method for keeping balance.

I curious what you would recommend for spells known...

 

[rkanodia]

Each Level, the Mage may choose a number of Spontaneous spells per day he may cast, OR a number of Prepared spells per day he may cast. This is a level specific number, and a lower level is not a prerequisite to get a higher level.

Nice idea, but you'll have to even out spontaneous progression somehow.

Look at the following 10th level characters. Each one has take 5 prepared casting levels, and 5 spontaneous levels. The first one took spontaneous casting at 1st, 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th, and the second one took spontaneous casting at 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th.

Character one, spells per day:
S: 5 4 4 4 4 3
P: 1 2 2 1 1 1
T: 6 6 6 5 5 4

Character two: spells per day:
S: 1 3 1 2 1 0
P: 3 2 2 2 2 1
T: 4 5 3 4 3 1

I know which one I'd want to play.

 

[Ubermeister Kevguy]

Hey everyone,
I just wanted to thank Alkabong (Dungeon Master and Master Player) for all his work on balancing out the merger of the two arcane classes so evenly. I for one have had need of such a system, and it has provided much more flexibility and variety amongst the Magi running around in my campaign.
I know from reading over this lengthy string that some of you simply just don't follow it, and that's okay. The main points for me were that: a fundamental split between the two styles of magic was artificial and contradictory to how magic has functioned in my Aeiranor campaign since it's inception back in 1988, and that it limited the types of Magi one might encounter. For example, with this as a base class you could very easily play either a Wizard or a Sorcerer STRAIGHT OUT OF THE CORE RULES with absolutely NO alterations, and have it be completely consistent with this class - both of those two core classes are PARTICULAR expressions of the "arcane feats" - though these are best thought of (I think we've agreed) as exclusive class skills.
One can also, however, create a variety of other magi, no more or less powerful, but different; For example, at Mage20, with all the "feats" mentioned in Alkabong's presentation, a Mage will have forgone item creation feats and other metamagic feats to enable a flexibility of casting. For the rare adventuring mage, this might become a matter of life or death - imagine being on adventure, separated from one's spell books and having to rely upon one's Mastered spells instead!
It also solves some of the metamagic "problems" some of us have ferreted out in our playtesting/playing...such as Sorcerers and Quickened Spells.

Thanks Again AlKabong!

PS - If you can't see the balance for what it is, you should probably consider playing a Fighter or something less complicated for awhile...sorry.

 

[pyk]

If you can't see the balance for what it is, you should probably consider playing a Fighter or something less complicated for awhile...sorry.

Until now, things have been fine in the thread. Yes, I have gotten quite sarcastic in my replies, but those were because of misunderstandings made by myself. These misunderstandings were cleared up, and things have straightened themselves up. Now, someone who has obviously not read the entire thread comes in and makes an assumptive phrase, and quite honestly, just kills it for me.

All the balance issues have been pointed out. Read the thread.

If the balance issues do not jump right out and bite you in the ...well, we'll leave that to your imagination...but if you don't see them, then you obviously don't care about have an "uber"class in your campaign, that can out strip all other classes in plain power.

As for me, I have tried to show how this class can be rebalanced to allow for all three classes playing alongside each other in any campaign. But now I've had enough.

Happy gaming