Wizard/Sorcerer Parent Class

[alkabong]

How about a system that lets wizards and sorcerors multiclass in a useful way, such that levels of Wizard give you access to more spells, while levels of Sorceror give you more flexibility in casting, but the overall effects stack?

An interesting idea - but it sounds potentially unbalancing to allow classes to stack in this way.

Spell Preparation: Wizards and Sorcerors both prepare spells as the PHB Wizard.

I'm sure any sorcerer would appreciate that change!

Spells per day: Add your Wizard and Sorceror levels, and use the PHB Wizard spells per day chart. Levels of sorceror also give bonus spells; you can memorize two extra spells per day at each spell level that your Sorceror levels alone are sufficient to cast. (In English: if you are a wizX/sorceror6, you get two extra spells at the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd spell levels)

This seems unbalancing because levels in sorcerer give you 1> Extra spells/day and 2> Extra spells known. Levels in Wizard give you 1> Extra spells/day. Bad for wizards, and good for sorcerers.

Spells known: Each time you gain a level of Sorceror, you automatically gain 2 spells known, only one of which may be from the highest level you can cast. Each time you gain a level of Wizard, you automatically gain one spell known. In addition, you may know up to 5 * Wizard level additional spells; these additional spells must be learned the normal way, with scribing costs and soforth. However, you may NOT scribe a spell at a given level if the number of spells you know at that level is equal to (or higher than) the number of spells you know at the level below. (In English: you can't scribe your fourth spell at level 7 if you only know three spells at level 6)

This seems a bit convoluted, and it looks like you get a *lot* for gaining a level in wizard OR sorcerer with this methodology.

Spell Flexibility: Each time you gain a level of Sorceror, you get an increase in Spontaneity Points. Yes, I know that 'Spontaneity Points' is the worst name ever. I just don't want to call them 'mana' points. I don't know exactly how many it should be. Maybe something like 2+CHA bonus per level. Maybe it should scale with level. Spontaneity Points are using to power (drumroll, please) spontaneous casting. You may choose to cast a spell spontaneously, using a spell that you had prepared at the same (or higher) level, by spending spontaneity points equal to the spell's level. Each day, when you prepare your spells, your Spontaneity Points are restored to maximum.

This sounds like a fairly good idea. Using points like this makes it easier to keep track of how much spontaneous casting you can do and isn't a restrictive a system as the classic sorcerer rules are. I agree that it should scale with level as well as allowing for high ability scores.

My biggest beef with this method is that it seems unbalanced - a character doesn't have to give up anything to both prepare spells and spontaneously cast them. They simply take levels in both wizard and sorcerer and these stack in the most beneficial way imaginable. That is why my initial concept required the expenditure of so many feats and required a good Intelligence AND a good Charisma to go down this path.

However, I really like the simplicity of the basic concept: simply take levels in wizard and sorcerer that match the "mix" that you are looking for. If you are approximately equal ability in both spontaneous casting and prepared casting, take the same number of levels in both classes. Perhaps if there were other factors that would balance the "super-stacking", this would be a viable approach.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

How about a system that lets wizards and sorcerors multiclass in a useful way, such that levels of Wizard give you access to more spells, while levels of Sorceror give you more flexibility in casting, but the overall effects stack?

Nice idea, but like alkabong indicated, we drift away from his intentions on this thread I believe that point is being raised in other threads. If not, start one and I'll gladly comment on it.

Some of your ideas are quite interesting, but I think that we're realling talking about changing the core way that magic works rather than simply modifying existing classes (which isn't bad of course, but not what I was originally shooting for).

Quite right. You indicated a desire to merge sorceror and wizard into a single class where players could mix and match abilities between the two classes. I have a sneaking feeling that if you combined my mana pool with your feats, you'd have something. FYI - I'm allowing sorcs access to the full wiz spells (limited by spellbook, not infinity) at a cost: spell failures.

That aside, I'm all for merging the two in the fashion you suggested. I firmly believe my class allows for the merging of the capabilities of the two classes as well, without the expenditure of feats.

For example, I might want to create a mage that can cast spontaneously, but I also want to specialize in making magic items that cast metamagically enhanced effects. Your class would definitely limit my options down that path. Especially if you consider that I'd have to prepare some of those spells with metamagic feats in them instead of fountaining them.


Bottom line - I think your class relies too heavily on feats to make it work, without enough inherent feat bonuses to the class. As a player I would play it once or twice just to learn it, and see it in action, then go back to playing a wizard with an obscene intell.

I think you should reduce the feat count cost, and increase inherent potentials for costs - spell failures, increased chance of not learning the spell, something.

 

[alkabong]

Bottom line - I think your class relies too heavily on feats to make it work, without enough inherent feat bonuses to the class. As a player I would play it once or twice just to learn it, and see it in action, then go back to playing a wizard with an obscene intell.

I think you should reduce the feat count cost, and increase inherent potentials for costs - spell failures, increased chance of not learning the spell, something.

I see what you mean about my class relying on feats in order to remain balanced; I hadn't really considered an alternative (such as the possiblity of spell failure) as a replacement.

I was really hoping for a system that didn't really change any of the basic rules about preparing spells, casting spells, writing spells into spellbooks, concentration checks, etc.

From a balance point of view, however, this is a great idea. This allows the classes to mix without spending all of your feats trying to spontaneously cast as well as prepare spells. I'm going to have to think about this a bit...

 

[rkanodia]

Good points, I'll find a better thread (or start a new one) after this post.

But about Sorcerors loving arcane preparation: I forgot about the way that lets Sorcerors evade the full-round metamagic hassle. Not sure what to do about that.

About Sorceror giving you extra spells known AND extra spells per day: Not really. Yes, the Sorcerors will definitely have more spells per day (which is already the case in PHB), but gaining 2 spells known per level compared to 1 + 5 spells known per level, well, it's not so one-sided. Also, perhaps I wasn't clear, you cannot get spells outside this method. So a 20th level pure Sorceror under these rules knows exactly 40 spells, which should be close (forgive me if I'm mistaken, I'm still at work) to his PHB companion.

About convolution: I know that some exists, but I tried to keep the theme 'just as long as it's not more than the level below'. Maybe there is a better way to word all of that.

I see that your biggest beef is allowing both prepared and spontaneous casting with no real cost. Perhaps one thing that could be done could be to give the Wizard 'Preparation Points' per level, and require Preparation Points to prepare a spell altered by metamagic feats. Thus, a pure Sorceror would have no ability to prepare metamagic'd spells, just as a pure Wizard would have no ability to spontaneously cast. Is there any other advantage to prepared casting over spontaneous casting that I am unaware of?

I agree that the drawback to mixing and matching isn't quite significant enough. I like the idea that a sorceror can shore up his collection of low-level spells in exchange for sacrificing his ludicrous number of 9th level spells-per-day, but right now, it just seems like too much benefit to pick up so many spells so quickly. And a pure Wizard might already feel like he has spells known coming out the wazoo, and so getting some flexibility at low levels might be worth passing up mass transmute lint to fiber or somesuch.

 

[pyk]

This seems unbalancing because levels in sorcerer give you 1> Extra spells/day and 2> Extra spells known. Levels in Wizard give you 1> Extra spells/day. Bad for wizards, and good for sorcerers.

Actually, levels in wizard also gives extra spells known. Two free spells each level, in fact.

This seems a bit convoluted, and it looks like you get a *lot* for gaining a level in wizard OR sorcerer with this methodology.


This sounds like a fairly good idea. Using points like this makes it easier to keep track of how much spontaneous casting you can do and isn't a restrictive a system as the classic sorcerer rules are. I agree that it should scale with level as well as allowing for high ability scores.

My biggest beef with this method is that it seems unbalanced - a character doesn't have to give up anything to both prepare spells and spontaneously cast them. They simply take levels in both wizard and sorcerer and these stack in the most beneficial way imaginable. That is why my initial concept required the expenditure of so many feats and required a good Intelligence AND a good Charisma to go down this path.

However, I really like the simplicity of the basic concept: simply take levels in wizard and sorcerer that match the "mix" that you are looking for. If you are approximately equal ability in both spontaneous casting and prepared casting, take the same number of levels in both classes. Perhaps if there were other factors that would balance the "super-stacking", this would be a viable approach.

Honestly, this is pretty much just what you were doing. Except, it was all being stacked on the Wizard. Your class, if you looked carefully at it, was simply a Wizard that got hois spellbook taken away and replaced by three extra feats. Needing to use two feats to get that book back, which really just makes it a Wizard with an extra feat, that can have the ability to cast spells spontaneously. In essence, "super-stacking" sorcerer on top of wizard.

 

[alkabong]

Actually, levels in wizard also gives extra spells known. Two free spells each level, in fact.

Actually, it's one spell known.

Honestly, this is pretty much just what you were doing. Except, it was all being stacked on the Wizard. Your class, if you looked carefully at it, was simply a Wizard that got hois spellbook taken away and replaced by three extra feats. Needing to use two feats to get that book back, which really just makes it a Wizard with an extra feat, that can have the ability to cast spells spontaneously. In essence, "super-stacking" sorcerer on top of wizard.

I think you're missing the balance issue here - check out rkanodia's response above and perhaps re-read the original class in the first post (you'll the "extra feat" you mention is used by classic wizards for Scribe Scroll). There is no "super-stacking" with the original class because the character must spend many feats and needs a good Int and Cha. There is "super-stacking" with the other class because you can combine abilities from sorcerer and wizard by simply taking levels in each and having them automatically stack in the best manner possible without expending feats, taking minuses, or some other balancing factor.

 

[alkabong]

Is there any other advantage to prepared casting over spontaneous casting that I am unaware of?

Probably not - I think the big worry is that prepared casters can choose their spells from a virtually unlimited source (their spellbooks), whereas spontaneous casters can only cast spells from a very limited list. It's important to prevent spontaneous casters from casting spontaneously from an unlimited source. I tried to preserve the limitations on spontaneous casters by limiting spontaneous casting strictly to mastered spells (which can only be gained by expenditure of feats). I believe that your proposal was very similar in this regard.

Also, by allowing both prepared spells and spontaneous spells, the character will gain some flexibility. This additional flexibility should come at some kind of cost.

I agree that the drawback to mixing and matching isn't quite significant enough. I like the idea that a sorceror can shore up his collection of low-level spells in exchange for sacrificing his ludicrous number of 9th level spells-per-day, but right now, it just seems like too much benefit to pick up so many spells so quickly. And a pure Wizard might already feel like he has spells known coming out the wazoo, and so getting some flexibility at low levels might be worth passing up mass transmute lint to fiber or somesuch.

Hehe. That would be a hard spell to pass up...

I've tried to use feats as a "sacrifice", but as Tilla suggested, there may be alternatives such as modified casting rules that could also be implemented - say a spellcraft roll is required to spontaneously cast a spell. I'm still thinking about that one.

The "spontanetity point" idea isn't bad - I kind of like the pool of mana type concept, but it's a change to the way spellcasting works fundamentally, so I'm nervous about tinkering here.

 

[pyk]

Actually, it's one spell known..

From the 3.5 SRD:
At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook.

I think you're missing the balance issue here - check out rkanodia's response above and perhaps re-read the original class in the first post (you'll the "extra feat" you mention is used by classic wizards for Scribe Scroll). There is no "super-stacking" with the original class because the character must spend many feats and needs a good Int and Cha. There is "super-stacking" with the other class because you can combine abilities from sorcerer and wizard by simply taking levels in each and having them automatically stack in the best manner possible without expending feats, taking minuses, or some other balancing factor.

OK, actually I believe scribe scroll to be near to useless at first level, and I know most Wizards would gladly give it up to get something more useful.

Also, by allowing both prepared spells and spontaneous spells, the character will gain some flexibility. This additional flexibility should come at some kind of cost.

Unfortunately, the "cost" you put into the class is really an advantage, that far outweighs the expenditure of a feat or three. Whether or not you only allow a Wizard to spontaneously cast 2 of each level spontaneously, you are still allowing them to cast the full regiment of prepared spells.

You do not have any limiting factors built into how many prepared spells the Wizard side of the class can cast. All one has to do is take two feats and they are allowed to prepare and cast as many spells as the wizard does, and adding the spontaneous feats only adds to them. There is no balance between how many spells that come from a Wizard, and how many spells come from a Sorcerer.

I have an idea, might not work, who knows. I'm going to write it out, and we'll see what happens. It'll take a day or two. I'll get back to you.

 

[alkabong]

From the 3.5 SRD:
At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook.

Ah, sorry. It looked like you were referring to the post by rkanodia, not the core rules. Also, I'm used to spells "known" as a sorcerer-type ability (i.e. mastered spells) - I didn't realize that you were referring to spells in a book.

OK, actually I believe scribe scroll to be near to useless at first level, and I know most Wizards would gladly give it up to get something more useful.

True - I'm sure that many 1st level wizards would give that feat up for something else, but scribe scroll is an extremely useful feat - even at low levels. I'm sure that many players would keep the feat, especially if they were concentrating on prepared spells for their character's path.

You do not have any limiting factors built into how many prepared spells the Wizard side of the class can cast. All one has to do is take two feats and they are allowed to prepare and cast as many spells as the wizard does, and adding the spontaneous feats only adds to them. There is no balance between how many spells that come from a Wizard, and how many spells come from a Sorcerer.

I disagree. The mage cannot prepare any more spells than a wizard of the same level and Intelligence could prepare. A mage cannot leave more slots "free" than a sorcerer of the same level and charisma could cast in a day. These do not stack - they must "give up" prepared slots to gain additional "free" slots or vice versa. This means that a mage of a certain level could decide one day to spontaneously cast only mastered spells. They would be limited by the sorcerer spells/day chart in this case. Or he could decide to prepare spells. He would be limited by the wizard spells/day chart. These limitations match the existing rules exactly. Note that if the spells/day for the sorcerer is greater (which will often be the case), the mage will be forced to leave the difference as free slots, from which only mastered spells can be cast.

 

[pyk]

I disagree. The mage cannot prepare any more spells than a wizard of the same level and Intelligence could prepare. A mage cannot leave more slots "free" than a sorcerer of the same level and charisma could cast in a day. These do not stack - they must "give up" prepared slots to gain additional "free" slots or vice versa. This means that a mage of a certain level could decide one day to spontaneously cast only mastered spells. They would be limited by the sorcerer spells/day chart in this case. Or he could decide to prepare spells. He would be limited by the wizard spells/day chart. These limitations match the existing rules exactly. Note that if the spells/day for the sorcerer is greater (which will often be the case), the mage will be forced to leave the difference as free slots, from which only mastered spells can be cast.

I did not state that clear enough. Your Mage is allowed to cast both prepared and spontaneous spells during the course of one day, provided the feats, etc., etc. The Mage at any level is allowed to prepare as many spells as a Wizard of the same level, plus additional spontaneous spells. Example: First level Mage, has required feats, etc. can cast 5 cantrips and 3 first level spells. The Mage can only prepare 3 cantrips and 1 first level spell, leaving 2 cantrips and 2 first level spells 'free' to be cast spontaneously. First level Wizard can prepare 3 cantrips and 1 first level spell. This is what I mean, by it's the equivelent of a Wizard with extra spells. Oh, and there's no limit to the number of 'free' slots, as this is controlled by the Sorcerer list which is always highr than the Wizard list.

As far as Scribe Scroll, I only meant that it's useless for first level, beyond that it's very useful.

Next post I'll try out my idea.