Wizard/Sorcerer Parent Class

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

Tilla, you've definately got some interesting ideas there. Within the context of what I was trying to do (make a parent class for wizard and sorcerer), I think that all of these could be useable modifications to the rules, assuming that both wizards and sorcerers would have to abide by the same restrictions and enhancements as mages would.

I'm not trying to create a new class so much as convert the existing wizard and sorcerer into different variants of the same meta-class.

- Al

Heh - that confused me slightly. Clarify meta-class?

My concept for a mage was an alternative core class that should be able to be played right alongside the sorceror and the wizard.

For Pyk's benefit, let me ask something without referring to your rules above, just your example, using your mage class.

Consider the first level mage with Int Mod +1 and Cha Mod +1 who takes the following feats: Arcane Preparation and Spontaneous Spellcasting, and Spell Mastery.

I, as a player, would examine the tables to find the following spells per day: Sorc - 5/3 and Wiz 3/1. Sorc of 5/3 + cha(1) = 5/4 spells I can spontaneously cast per day. However, I could prepare up to 3/1 spells, leaving 2/2 spells to spontaneous casting if I should so choose.

Is that correct? If so, I think I see a flaw.


Pyk - just for the record - I mistyped earlier, the generalist should NEVER meet or exceed the specialist in the specialists chosen specialty - that I would stand firm on.

 

[alkabong]

The Sorcerer takes a hit on the number of spells known, in order to cast many more spells per day.

With the proposed system, a sorcerer doesn't take any change to his spells known (aka mastered) - they take bonus feats so that they have access to the sorcerer spells known table. As they gain levels, they choose spell mastery as their bonus feats (at 5th, 10th, etc) so that they can master/know additional spells of higher levels. Note that a character with a high Intelligence and a low Charisma might find he can cast more prepared spells than mastered ones.

The Wizard takes a hit on the number of spells cast, in order to have what could be an infinite number of spells known.

Allowing a Wizard to be able to cast any spell in his spellbook spontaneously would do the same thing.

This is not quite what I was trying to allow - if I allowed mages to spontaneously cast any spell in their books, it would make this class far too powerful. Mages can only spontaneously cast a spell if it is mastered. To master spells of higher levels, they must spend additional feats (character level and/or bonus feats) to gain additional mastered spells, which will come at the expense of goodies like item creation feats and metamagic feats.

Your bonus feats are quite close to what I had in mind, but they make the class less a "meta-class" (one which you could construct a wizard or sorcerer out of) and more of range of additional feats that wizards (only) or sorcerers (only) can take. Still good suggestions, though. Thanks for taking the time to look this through and provide feedback

 

[alkabong]

Heh - that confused me slightly. Clarify meta-class?

By meta-class, I mean a core class that you can play a wizard or a sorcerer by choosing a different set of bonus feats as you gain levels. Or, by spending a truckload of feats (and having both a good Charisma and Intelligence), you can combine features from both wizard and sorcerer.

This could easily be considered simply an alternative core class as you say, and would co-exist with wizard and sorcerer just fine.

Consider the first level mage with Int Mod +1 and Cha Mod +1 who takes the following feats: Arcane Preparation and Spontaneous Spellcasting, and Spell Mastery.

I, as a player, would examine the tables to find the following spells per day: Sorc - 5/3 and Wiz 3/1. Sorc of 5/3 + cha(1) = 5/4 spells I can spontaneously cast per day. However, I could prepare up to 3/1 spells, leaving 2/2 spells to spontaneous casting if I should so choose.

Is that correct? If so, I think I see a flaw.

You should also assume the feat Arcane Transcription (so that the character can prepare spells from a spellbook).

Assuming that the character was 5/4 rather than 5/3 because of a Charisma bonus, then:
- You would still only be able to prepare a maximum of three cantrips and one 1st level spell.
- If you prepared 3 cantrips and one 1st level spell, that would leave 2 cantrips and 3 1st levels spell slots that would be "free". You can only cast mastered spells from a free slot.
- You could also prepare less spells and leave more "free" so that you have more flexibility - but then you lose access to spells from your spellbook and have to rely on mastered spells.

I'm curious - what's the flaw?

 

[pyk]

By meta-class, I mean a core class that you can play a wizard or a sorcerer by choosing a different set of bonus feats as you gain levels. Or, by spending a truckload of feats (and having both a good Charisma and Intelligence), you can combine features from both wizard and sorcerer.

This could easily be considered simply an alternative core class as you say, and would co-exist with wizard and sorcerer just fine.

Except this class would still outstrip either the Wizard or the Sorcerer, especially if the player does take that truckload of feats and utilizes all the features of Wizard and Sorcerer.

You should also assume the feat Arcane Transcription (so that the character can prepare spells from a spellbook).

Assuming that the character was 5/4 rather than 5/3 because of a Charisma bonus, then:
- You would still only be able to prepare a maximum of three cantrips and one 1st level spell.
- If you prepared 3 cantrips and one 1st level spell, that would leave 2 cantrips and 3 1st levels spell slots that would be "free". You can only cast mastered spells from a free slot.
- You could also prepare less spells and leave more "free" so that you have more flexibility - but then you lose access to spells from your spellbook and have to rely on mastered spells.

I'm curious - what's the flaw?

But those prepared spells are allowed to have metamagic applied, as per the rules.

No matter how it's worded, this is merely the equivalent of a Sorcerer being able to cast spells as a Wizard, which makes it overpowered. Notice, I included a penalty for allowing a Wizard to spontaneously cast any spells, and a penalty for Sorcerers preparing spells. This probably does not balance the feats well enough, but only playtesting would tell.

As far as "meta-classing" the two, that would be as easy as making a meta buil of the fighter and barbarian, or the paladin and ranger, or the cleric and druid. Although the classes seem to be very close, they are far apart.

 

[alkabong]

Except this class would still outstrip either the Wizard or the Sorcerer, especially if the player does take that truckload of feats and utilizes all the features of Wizard and Sorcerer.

Well, if the wizard takes a bunch of metamagic feats and item creation abilities rather than spontaneously casting, I'd say that's at least somewhat balancing. Something has to be given up for this additional flexibility.

No matter how it's worded, this is merely the equivalent of a Sorcerer being able to cast spells as a Wizard, which makes it overpowered.

Well, the general idea was to have a combined class that could prepare some spells and cast some mastered spells. I tried to balance this by requiring the expenditure of feats and high Intelligence and Charisma scores. If there isn't any amount or combination of words that would make this OK in your books, I certainly understand.

I'm curious, the feat Arcane Preparation (which kind of inspired this line of thinking) was presented in Tome & Blood (and I think the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting(?) and the epic level handbook (as a non-epic feat)) - have you seen this? It is basically the same as my Arcane Preparation feat - it allows sorcerers to prepare any spells that you they know - and is about the only way that a sorcerer can cast a quickened spell. I'm curious if this seems like crazy talk to you as well.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

[This could easily be considered simply an alternative core class as you say, and would co-exist with wizard and sorcerer just fine.]

Hmm... But I think not as most players would prefer this class over sorc/wiz - but hang on...

[You should also assume the feat Arcane Transcription (so that the character can prepare spells from a spellbook).]

Right - missed that. So the feats the first level human mage takes are:
Arcane Transcription, Spell Mastery, Arcane Preparation, and Spontaneous Casting, and Improved Spontaneous Casting.
(1 for first level, 1 for human, 3 bonus feats at first mage)

[Assuming that the character was 5/4 rather than 5/3 because of a Charisma bonus, then:
- You would still only be able to prepare a maximum of three cantrips and one 1st level spell.
- If you prepared 3 cantrips and one 1st level spell, that would leave 2 cantrips and 3 1st levels spell slots that would be "free". You can only cast mastered spells from a free slot.
- You could also prepare less spells and leave more "free" so that you have more flexibility - but then you lose access to spells from your spellbook and have to rely on mastered spells.
]

Here is what I am confused about:

Q1: How many spells PER day, regardless of prepared or not, do I get, and exactly why?

Q2: Is the maximum prepared spells PER day that I can cast gleaned from the wizards PER DAY table?

Q3: Am I correct that the number of Spontaneously cast Masterered Spells I can cast PER DAY gleaned from the Sorc's PER DAY table or KNOWN table?

My current perception is that with a decent CHA and INT, I can go ahead and prepare and cast spells as though I was full wizard, yet get some spontaneously cast spells per day ON TOP OF the prepared spells. In other words, I can prepare the wizards max of 3 cantrips, cast them, and then follow them with 2 more spontaneously cast Sorceror-style cantrips.

Is that right?

 

[Pyrex]

Here's another feat-based approach.

Improved Spell Mastery
PreReq: Spell Mastery, Cha 13+
Benefit: The character may "lose" any prepared arcane spell to spontaneously cast any mastered spell of the same level or lower.
(In order to spontaneously cast a spell the character must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The DC for the spontaneously cast spell is 10 + SL + Cha mod)
Normal: Mastered spells may not be cast spontaneously.

 

[alkabong]

Q1: How many spells PER day, regardless of prepared or not, do I get, and exactly why?

For each spell level, you choose the higher number, remembering to adjust for Intelligence (from the wizard chart) and Charisma (from the sorcerer chart). See the bottom of this post for the reason why it is done this way.

Q2: Is the maximum prepared spells PER day that I can cast gleaned from the wizards PER DAY table?

Yes, the maximum number of spells that you can prepare comes from the wizard chart.

Q3: Am I correct that the number of Spontaneously cast Masterered Spells I can cast PER DAY gleaned from the Sorc's PER DAY table or KNOWN table?

The maximum spells slots that can be left "free" comes from the sorcerer spells/day chart, not the Known table. (The known table is used to determine how many spells you have mastered)

My current perception is that with a decent CHA and INT, I can go ahead and prepare and cast spells as though I was full wizard, yet get some spontaneously cast spells per day ON TOP OF the prepared spells. In other words, I can prepare the wizards max of 3 cantrips, cast them, and then follow them with 2 more spontaneously cast Sorceror-style cantrips.

Is that right?

If your character that morning decided to leave two slots "free" and prepared three cantrips, that's exactly right.

I don't know if I'd say you get them ON TOP OF each other, I'd say the spells/day "overlap" or you could say that they don't stack. That means if you got 4/3 spells/day from both charts, you would get 4/3 spells per day. In this case you could decide how many slots are "free" (and therefore can be used to cast a mastered spell) or filled with a prepared spell (and must be cast as you prepared them).

1: The wizard spells/day chart puts a maximum on the number of spells that can be prepared.

2: The sorcerer spells/day chart puts a maximum on the number of spell slots that can be left "free".

So back to your Q1: Why is the number of spells/day chosen this way? It's kind of a result of the previous two points, assuming your maximum prepared is from one chart and your maximum free is from another, your number/day is the greater of the two.

 

[pyk]

I'm curious, the feat Arcane Preparation (which kind of inspired this line of thinking) was presented in Tome & Blood (and I think the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting(?) and the epic level handbook (as a non-epic feat)) - have you seen this? It is basically the same as my Arcane Preparation feat - it allows sorcerers to prepare any spells that you they know - and is about the only way that a sorcerer can cast a quickened spell. I'm curious if this seems like crazy talk to you as well.

Actually, I do pick and choose quite well through the "splat" books, such as Tome and Blood, because most of the feats and/or spells are just crazy talk to me.

Allowing a Sorc to prepare some of the few (count 'em, they are few) spells that they know is one thing. Allowing a Sorcerer the same amount of spells known as a Wizard, and then preparing those as well, that's completely different.

Forget the lower levels:
At level 20, Wizard casts 4 spells per spell level (no modifiers) from a virtually unlimited source (spellbook)

At level 20, Sorcerer casts 6 spells per spell level
This is balanced by the Sorcerer only knowing 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3.

At level 20, Mage casts 6 spells per level, as either prepared or spontaneous
This is balanced by the spontaneous spells being 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3 AND the prepared spells being as much as he can cram in his spell book.
Add high Charisma and high Intelligence and this get even worse.

This is because the Mage has access to 14 feats at level 20, and this progression only requires 9. Which leaves 5 open feats for metamagic (Read QUICKEN), 6 if the Mage is a human. This is where the flaw in the class is. Make this balanced out with the Sorcerer and Wizard, and then it will work. Always have to remember that the Wizard gets access to a virtually unlimited number of spells to use, this must be factored in.

 

[alkabong]

Here's another feat-based approach.

Improved Spell Mastery
PreReq: Spell Mastery, Cha 13+
Benefit: The character may "lose" any prepared arcane spell to spontaneously cast any mastered spell of the same level or lower.
(In order to spontaneously cast a spell the character must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The DC for the spontaneously cast spell is 10 + SL + Cha mod)
Normal: Mastered spells may not be cast spontaneously.

Thanks for the great suggestion, Pyrex. I included a very similar feat in my initial presentation, check it out. (Unless your smiley is an indicator that you read it already and are just stirring the pot a bit!)