Wizard/Sorcerer Parent Class

*goes back and checks*
Oh, there it is. Totally missed it the first (and, well, the second) time I read your post.

Having read your version (Improved Spontaneous Casting) I think the provision in mine that the spontaneous casting of the mastered spells is CHA based instead of INT based is very important from a balance standpoint.

Given that change, I think 'Improved Spell Mastery' is pretty close to balanced compared to 'Signature Spell' (from FRCS, which I consider to be a kinda weak feat). If the spontaneous casting remained INT based it's just too good for a standard Wizard.
 

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pyk said:
Actually, I do pick and choose quite well through the "splat" books, such as Tome and Blood, because most of the feats and/or spells are just crazy talk to me.
I've felt the same way at many of the feats in these books!

I think your approach is right on - what do the different classes look like at 20th level? Especially if we're trying to maintain a semblance of balance.

Level 20 Wizard
4 spells per spell level, virtually unlimited source.
Scribe scroll,
4 bonus arcane feats
7 (or 8 if human) character level feats

Level 20 Sorcerer
6 spells/level, limited by only knowing 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3
No bonus arcane feats
7 (or 8 if human) character level feats

Level 20 Mage
6 spells/level, some are prepared (max 4/level from unlimited source), some mastered (limited by knowing 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3)
No bonus arcane feats (other than Arcane Transcription, Arcane Preparation, Spontaneous caster, spell mastery (5 times), thus has used all arcane bonus feats and a character level feat to boot)
= 6 (or 7 if human) character level feats.

Compared to a wizard, the mage looks OK in my eyes. They've given up quite a few feats (6) to do well in spontaneous casting (and they obviously have both a 19+ Cha and Int).

Thinks look a bit worse looking at the sorcerer. The mage has everything the sorcerer has (except has given up an additional character level feat), but can now prepare 2 spells/level that he couldn't before, from spellbooks. This should probably cost more than one feat.

It's my opinion that sorcerers don't compare favourably to wizards at 20th level (or at nearly any level - but I don't want to start a flame war here!), but looking at the numbers from this point of view, I'd say the mage class balances OK with the wizard, but not so well with the sorcerer.
 

Pyrex said:
*goes back and checks*
Oh, there it is. Totally missed it the first (and, well, the second) time I read your post.

Having read your version (Improved Spontaneous Casting) I think the provision in mine that the spontaneous casting of the mastered spells is CHA based instead of INT based is very important from a balance standpoint.

Given that change, I think 'Improved Spell Mastery' is pretty close to balanced compared to 'Signature Spell' (from FRCS, which I consider to be a kinda weak feat). If the spontaneous casting remained INT based it's just too good for a standard Wizard.

I agree. My first draft was Int based, but that doesn't really make sense in 3rd edition. Spontaneous casters such as monsters, bards, and sorcerers all use Charisma - and so should any spontaneous caster.

It also makes it necessary to invest in a good Charisma if you want to mix and match, which is a quite a sacrifice if your DM insists on a point-buy method for attribute generation!
 

alkabong said:
I've felt the same way at many of the feats in these books!

I think your approach is right on - what do the different classes look like at 20th level? Especially if we're trying to maintain a semblance of balance.

Level 20 Wizard
4 spells per spell level, virtually unlimited source.
Scribe scroll,
4 bonus arcane feats
7 (or 8 if human) character level feats

Level 20 Sorcerer
6 spells/level, limited by only knowing 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3
No bonus arcane feats
7 (or 8 if human) character level feats

Level 20 Mage
6 spells/level, some are prepared (max 4/level from unlimited source), some mastered (limited by knowing 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3)
No bonus arcane feats (other than Arcane Transcription, Arcane Preparation, Spontaneous caster, spell mastery (5 times), thus has used all arcane bonus feats and a character level feat to boot)
= 6 (or 7 if human) character level feats.

Compared to a wizard, the mage looks OK in my eyes. They've given up quite a few feats (6) to do well in spontaneous casting (and they obviously have both a 19+ Cha and Int).

Thinks look a bit worse looking at the sorcerer. The mage has everything the sorcerer has (except has given up an additional character level feat), but can now prepare 2 spells/level that he couldn't before, from spellbooks. This should probably cost more than one feat.

It's my opinion that sorcerers don't compare favourably to wizards at 20th level (or at nearly any level - but I don't want to start a flame war here!), but looking at the numbers from this point of view, I'd say the mage class balances OK with the wizard, but not so well with the sorcerer.

Well, there you go. It sounds balanced to you. You won't know for sure until it's tried out in your games, but I can guarantee all your spellcasters will be choosing that over Sorcerer or Wizard. But, that's just my opinion.

Cheers
 

pyk said:
Well, there you go. It sounds balanced to you. You won't know for sure until it's tried out in your games, but I can guarantee all your spellcasters will be choosing that over Sorcerer or Wizard. But, that's just my opinion.

Cheers

Well, to be honest, it doesn't really sound quite balanced with regards to the sorcerer. I'm not sure if that's because I believe the sorcerer isn't balanced with respect to the wizard, or if there should be something "more" required here to prevent abuse and keep it balanced.

And yes, all the spellcasters are sure to choose Mage over sorcerer or wizard - what I'm trying to do here is to make a class that encompasses both Wizard and Sorcerer and allow characters the option to take on characteristics of the other class.

Thanks for the opinion, pyk. It's appreciated.
 

alkabong said:
It also makes it necessary to invest in a good Charisma if you want to mix and match, which is a quite a sacrifice if your DM insists on a point-buy method for attribute generation!

That's pretty much what I had in mind. Even just with mastered spells, adding spontaneous casting to a wizard gives them a huge boost in versatility. The 'cost' of a high enough CHA to make it worthwhile is the major balancing factor in the feat.
 

alkabong said:
Well, to be honest, it doesn't really sound quite balanced with regards to the sorcerer. I'm not sure if that's because I believe the sorcerer isn't balanced with respect to the wizard, or if there should be something "more" required here to prevent abuse and keep it balanced.

And yes, all the spellcasters are sure to choose Mage over sorcerer or wizard - what I'm trying to do here is to make a class that encompasses both Wizard and Sorcerer and allow characters the option to take on characteristics of the other class.

Thanks for the opinion, pyk. It's appreciated.


So it is actually a replacement for the sorc and wizard, as most players would prefer to play mage rather than either of the others. The mage 'gets' everything the wizard does, and gains sorc-like abilities on top of that. I say 'on top of' because of my examples wherein the character prepares his max prepared spells as per the wizards table, and then spontaneously casts on top of that.

Y'all picked up on the flaw I was perceiving, and explained it at level 20. It's not truly a flaw - it just makes 'mage' a merger of sorc/wizard and replaces them. Personally, this class seems a trifle complicated, is there any way to simplify the class and still keep what you are trying to accomplish? I suspect there may be room to abuse this system in play, especially when you start adding in meta-magic feats, etc.

Of course, what you are technically doing during this 'mage' class merger is a SP system... :)
 

Tilla the Hun (work) said:
Personally, this class seems a trifle complicated, is there any way to simplify the class and still keep what you are trying to accomplish? I suspect there may be room to abuse this system in play, especially when you start adding in meta-magic feats, etc.
I agree that it is a bit complicated. Originally, the class was Intelligence based, which was much simpler. But I changed it for a few reasons:
- I wanted to be able to build a sorcerer by picking a particular feat progression, and they are Charisma based
- Pretty well all spontaneous casters, such as monsters from the Monster Manual, use Charisma for their spontaneous arcane casting. This seems to be a standard for 3[.5]
- It makes the class a bit more difficult to excel in if the character needs a good Int AND a good Cha. At least the character will have to give up some Dex or Con if he wants to go down that path.

Unfortunately, I can't seem to come up with a system that fits within the context of sorcerer and wizard that is simpler, which is really too bad.

Tilla the Hun (work) said:
Of course, what you are technically doing during this 'mage' class merger is a SP system... :)
Sorry, what is a SP system?
 

alkabong said:
Sorry, what is a SP system?

Spell Point system...

You're converting the sorc/wiz tables to spell points required to cast spells and designating some as prepared and some as spontaneous.

I will post my version of the 'mage' class. It's a bit more blatant SP system than yours, but you might consider it slightly simpler than yours.

It doesn't quite meet your desire, I'm afraid, but I'm sure a little tweaking with feats like you've done and it will.


Let me convert that word doc into a text file and post it. Might be a day or two.
 

Lets see how readable this is...

System One: Mage Core Class

Introduction:
This Core Class concept is an alternative to having two separate arcane spell casters, each with their own pros and cons. This class attempts to emulate the magic users most often seen in various media – where a user can learn any number of spells through study, but is not required to prepare spells ahead of time, or to pore over tomes of magic each and every night. This proposal introduces a variant spell point system, the concept of an inborn ‘mage-gift’, and merges Wizards with Sorcerors, eliminating the differences between the two. Specialist mages are still possible.
The concept of ‘mage-gift’ is accomplished by establishing a class ability called ‘mage-gift’. This ability can be tweaked for individual systems to accommodate anything from being a requirement to being a bonus feat, to only being available to a certain race. The variant spell point system refers to spell points by the name of ‘mana’ and requiring spellcasters casting spells to meet the spells mana requirements. The amount of mana a character has is defined by the charisma modifier and the characters level. Intelligence will define what spells the character can learn and cast.

Class Attributes:
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d4.
Class Skills: The mage’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Alchemy (Int), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (any) (Int), Profession (Wis), Scry (Int, exclusive skill), Sense Motive (Cha), and Spellcraft (Int). See Chapter 4: Skills in the Player’s Handbook for skill descriptions. Where Sorceror or Wizard gains additional skills, GM’s may allow those skills to be added to this list.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + INT modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + INT modifier.

Class Features:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Mages are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor, nor with shields.
Spells:
A Mage casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list by manipulating magical energy in units called ‘mana’ to power spells stored in her spellbook. To enter a spell into her spellbook, the mage must learn the spell. To learn a spell, the mage must have an intelligence score of at least 10 + the spell level. A mage begins play at first level with a spellbook containing all cantrips in the PHB and 2 + intelligence modifier first level spells, and gains her intelligence modifier + 1 in spells each level she gains. These spells can be of any level up to the highest that she can cast.
To cast a spell, the mage chooses a spell and notes the spell level, including metamagic modifiers. She makes a caster level check (d20 + caster level + charisma modifier, DC = 10 + spell level) to see if she can successfully cast the spell (manipulate the magical energies). If successful, she expends an amount of mana equal to the level of the spell. A saving throw will have a DC equal to the result of the caster level check plus the mana expended (note: a mage can expend additional mana to increase the DC of the saving throw at a 4 mana for 1 point enhancement ratio). If the caster level check is not successful, the mana is not lost. If it is a fumble (d20 rolls a 1), the mana is lost and the spell has no effect. If it is a critical success (d20 rolls a 20) then the mana is not lost, but the spell still takes effect.
A Mage can cast a number of cantrips per day equal to her levels of mage without spending any mana. After her allotted number, she must spend 1 mana per cantrip. A mage can also cast spells of a higher level than normal, but the caster level check DC increases to 25 + spell level, and the mana cost doubles. Usage of spell components can reduce the mana cost of the spell by ½ the normal amount. Also, hit points may be substituted for mana. The ‘Blood Magic Feat’ allows a mage to use another’s hit points to fuel her magic, but is considered an evil act. The divine spell “shield other” allows another to suffer the hit point loss in a non-evil way.
A mage recovers mana at the same rate as she would recover hit points, but healing care and magical healing have no effect on her mana pool.
A mage can choose to expend mana to increase her saving throw versus any non-supernatural magical spell or effect. For each point of enhancement bonus she wishes to boost her saving throw by, she must expend 4 mana. Hit points cannot be substituted for this. She must declare the amount of mana she is using, if any, before rolling her saving throw.

A mages mana pool total can never exceed her character level times her charisma modifier.

Bonus Languages: A mage can substitute Draconic for any language normally allowed her race.

Familiar: A mage can obtain a familiar in exactly the same manner as a wizard or sorcerer can. See the sorcerer description and the information on Familiars in the PHB.

Scribe Scroll: At 1st level, a wizard gains Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat.

Bonus Feats: Every four levels, a mage gains a bonus feat. This feat must be a metamagic feat, an item creation feat, or a spell mastery. The wizard must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including caster level minimums.
These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. The wizard is not limited to the categories of item creation feats, metamagic feats, or Spell Mastery when choosing these feats.

Spellbooks: Mage’s keep a private copy of their spells in a spellbook. A mage must spend 1 hour of rest and 1 hour immediately following the rest to study spells. A mage that does not take this time to study her spellbook automatically loses 2*caster level in mana per day until she does.

Spell Mastery: A mage (and only a mage) can take the special feat Spell Mastery. Each time the mage takes this feat, choose a number of spells equal to the mage's Intelligence modifier (they must be spells that the mage already knows) to a maximum of four. From that point on, the mage need not make the caster level check to cast those spells. Concentration checks made while casting the spell can be made by taking 10. Furthermore, any metamagic feats applied no longer increase the casting times of these spells.


Mage Table:
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Summon Familiar, Scribe Scroll, Bonus Feat
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3
3rd +1 +1 +1 +3
4th +2 +1 +1 +4 Bonus Feat
5th +2 +1 +1 +4
6th +3 +2 +2 +5
7th +3 +2 +2 +5
8th +4 +2 +2 +6 Bonus Feat
9th +4 +3 +3 +6
10th +5 +3 +3 +7
11th +5 +3 +3 +7
12th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 Bonus Feat
13th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8
14th +7/+2 +4 +4 +9
15th +7/+2 +5 +5 +9
16th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 Bonus Feat
17th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10
18th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11
19th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11
20th +10/+5 +6 +6 +12 Bonus Feat
 

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