Wizard/Sorcerer Parent Class

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

So that's the original version of my core class mage concept.

Since then, the following changes were made:

DC to cast lowered to 5 + spell level

Spell Mastery feat removed

Additional features were added:
A mage can choose to 'prepare' a spell, expending the chosen amount of mana at the time of preparation. They can add in metamagic effects or heightened mana expenditures at this time.
Preparing a spell is precasting the spell and hooking it to a final trigger. This allows the mage to cast it at a moments notice, regardless of the normal casting time required (always a standard action). However, these spells are difficult to maintain in this state, and any event that significantly disrupts the mage can result in the spell being lost (being hit, sleeping, getting drunk, etc.) Any such event causes a concentration check at a DC of 10 + the spell level + any damage taken. If the check is failed, all of the spells 'prepared' in this manner trigger in a chain reaction.



It's my intention as a designer to allow a mage to cast both prepared and spontaneous spells from the same spell list (the spellbook) provided they have learned and studied those spells. However, this manner of casting should never significantly exceed the maximum spells per day allowed to either a sorc or wiz of the exact same stats.

The size of a casters mana pool is their character level times their CHA modifier. This can significantly alter the number of spells a mage can cast when compared to another, but the cap remains similar to that of a sorc of the same level, with greater flexibility.

With a CHA mod of 1 at 1-3 levels, the 3rd lvl char has only 3 mana. At 4th they bump their CHA mod to 2, and suddenly they have 8 mana. Compare the 8 mana to what a Sorc or a wizard could do at lvl 3 could do with the same cha mod.
Sorc = 6/6, Wizard = 4/3/2 (Int+1)
Mage = 8 Mana or 14/0/0 (6 free cantrips plus 8 for 1 mana apiece), or 6/8/0 (6 free cantrips + 8 lvl1 spells at 1 mana apiece) or 6/0/4 or 6/4/2 etc.

At least for the first few levels, mage appears to compare favorably as far as balance goes - just more flexibility at the cost of a higher rate of spell failures.

What about lvl20?
Sorc = 6 across 0-9, and wizard = 4 across 0-9.
Ignore mod bonuses for a second... (assume mod=0)
Mage at 20 = 20clvl * 0 (cha mod) = 0. No mana.
So Cha Mod 1 means 20 points, way underpowered compared to the sorc.
But Cha Mod 2 means 40 points. That's 4 9th level spells if you don't cast much else.
Cha Mod 3 means 60 points. That's 6 9th lvl if you don't cast much else.
However, at +4 mod (reasonable for a mage) you get 80.
You could do 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6 for only 54 points... nicely outpowering the sorc - but requiring a high CHA.

That's the only part of this class that troubles me is how easily the mage out powers the sorc and wizard at later levels.

 

[pyk]

According to your rules, to cast 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6 would actually cost 270 "mana points", not 54. 54 points to cast 6 level 9s, 48 for 8s, 42 for 7s, 36 for 6s, 30 for 5s, 24 for 4s, 18 for 3s, 12 for 2s, 6 for 1s, and 0 for 0s: 54+48+42+36+30+24+18+12+6+0=270. Which would require a 'Mage' with a CHA of 38+. Even casting 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4 requires 180 points, CHA of 28+. 1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1 requires 45 points. All 2s is 90 points. By the time your 'Mage' does 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4 a Wizard does 4/7/6/6/6/6/5/5/5/5 with INT of 28.

Oh, and +4 CHA is only 18-19. 20th level SORC with 19 CHA can cast 6/7/7/7/7/6/6/6/6/6 (280 points). In fact, any 20th level Sorc that can cast level 9 spells can cast AT LEAST that many per day. And 20th level Wizard with 19 INT casts 4/5/5/5/5/4/4/4/4/4 (190 points).

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

According to your rules, to cast 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6 would actually cost 270 "mana points", not 54. 54 points to cast 6 level 9s, 48 for 8s, 42 for 7s, 36 for 6s, 30 for 5s, 24 for 4s, 18 for 3s, 12 for 2s, 6 for 1s, and 0 for 0s: 54+48+42+36+30+24+18+12+6+0=270. .

Sheesh - I'm embarrased - a math minor who can't even add

Point taken... 20th sorc with char +5 would only have 100 points.

So when I said "... she expends an amount of mana equal to the level of the spell." that means to cast a 9th level spell, she expends 9 mana.

Hmm. So she can cast 10 9th level spells and 10 first level spells, if she sacrifices everything in between, right?

Or how about this: Not counting 0's (cuz she gets 6 free anyway), she could cast 1 of each level, spending 9+8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1 = 45. 2 of each level would then be 90, leaving her 10 points left over.

That, however, is if she is choosing to spontaneously cast EVERY spell.

What if she were to impress those spells the night before? Now she can cast 4 at each level (matching a poor wizard). Spend two nights, she gets 6 at each level, matching the poor sorc. Spend 3 nights, she gets 8 at each level, outstripping both the good sorc and good wizard. Of course, that 8 is limited by the maximum per day they can cast, modified by their attribute mod, so it would be more along the lines of 6/7/7/7/7/6/6/6/6... (assuming cha of +5) Nice to know there are rewards for studying one's spells, isn't it?

Although I'd not like to be a fighter in that group... "Don't let them hit the mage!!!"


So what exactly was your complaint? That they cannot cast as powerfully as a sorc/wizard in numbers of spells? I'd disagree with the preparation rules. Beyond that I'm not sure - perhaps you'd enlighten me?

 

[pyk]

Sheesh - I'm embarrased - a math minor who can't even add

Point taken... 20th sorc with char +5 would only have 100 points.

So when I said "... she expends an amount of mana equal to the level of the spell." that means to cast a 9th level spell, she expends 9 mana.

Hmm. So she can cast 10 9th level spells and 10 first level spells, if she sacrifices everything in between, right?

Or how about this: Not counting 0's (cuz she gets 6 free anyway), she could cast 1 of each level, spending 9+8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1 = 45. 2 of each level would then be 90, leaving her 10 points left over.

That, however, is if she is choosing to spontaneously cast EVERY spell.

What if she were to impress those spells the night before? Now she can cast 4 at each level (matching a poor wizard). Spend two nights, she gets 6 at each level, matching the poor sorc. Spend 3 nights, she gets 8 at each level, outstripping both the good sorc and good wizard. Of course, that 8 is limited by the maximum per day they can cast, modified by their attribute mod, so it would be more along the lines of 6/7/7/7/7/6/6/6/6... (assuming cha of +5) Nice to know there are rewards for studying one's spells, isn't it?

Although I'd not like to be a fighter in that group... "Don't let them hit the mage!!!"


So what exactly was your complaint? That they cannot cast as powerfully as a sorc/wizard in numbers of spells? I'd disagree with the preparation rules. Beyond that I'm not sure - perhaps you'd enlighten me?

Prep rules. You allow the precast spells to carry to the next days? It doesn't say that anywhere. But, well try this then:

After that two week trip to the next dungeon, that 'Mage' would be able to cast 28 spells of each level? With little or no worry about triggering a reaction and losing them, because 10+9 (spell level)=19, concentration would be 23+mod+d20.

OK, even though this is not written in the rules you show, exactly how is this class balanced with ANY other? And tell me why in your campaigns I should choose any class but this one?

Waitaminutehere!! I also just noticed that there's no prvision to stop a first level 'Mage' from casting a 5th level spell. This is balanced? All I'd have to do is have CHA of 20, really not hard with point buy, if I sacrifice some of the other Atts like STR & WIS.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

Prep rules. You allow the precast spells to carry to the next days? It doesn't say that anywhere. But, well try this then:

After that two week trip to the next dungeon, that 'Mage' would be able to cast 28 spells of each level? With little or no worry about triggering a reaction and losing them, because 10+9 (spell level)=19, concentration would be 23+mod+d20.

OK, even though this is not written in the rules you show, exactly how is this class balanced with ANY other? And tell me why in your campaigns I should choose any class but this one?

Waitaminutehere!! I also just noticed that there's no prvision to stop a first level 'Mage' from casting a 5th level spell. This is balanced? All I'd have to do is have CHA of 20, really not hard with point buy, if I sacrifice some of the other Atts like STR & WIS.

My deepest, most sincerest apologies - apparently you perceived that I was presenting this class AS a finished, completed, balanced class. That is incorrect. I was posting it for consideration due to it's similarities. I know it's not finished, and I would appreciate if you would propose 'fixes' for these 'issues' you are pointing out...

That said, let me address some of the issues you pointed out.

Prepping spells - those conc checks would occur even when you went to sleep. For each spell, currenty, though that is a bit much in the way of rolling. Perhaps the conc check should incorporate the number of spells you have prepped? i.e. concentration check = 10 + highest level of spell + total number of spells? That would tend to stop the 'overpreparing' of spells, especially when you consider that the mage has to succeed at this check _anytime_ they are distracted, hit, confused, trying to go to sleep, etc. Most mages would, I think, wait till the last possible moment (the night before a dungeon?) to impress spells.

As for a first level mage casting a 5th level spells, did you check the DC on being able to cast it? A 1st level mage with the 20 cha you propose (not even counting the penalties you took to get there) would have only 5 mana available. You would need to succeed at a caster level check with a DC of 30 (25 + 5) and then spend 10 mana... Now you could spend 5 mana and 5 hitpoints, but it seems to me with a 20 CHA, you don't have the CON to provide more than a +1 hp modifier, so even if you somehow succeeded at that DC of 30 (how??) you'd knock yourself out casting the spell.

No - allowing a mage to cast above their level doesn't bother me. It tends to blur the 'linear' nature of the dnd magic system, and remains balanced (at least at lower levels).

As to why you would choose _any_ other class than this one? Clerics are still an awesome choice, as would be a rogue. Wizard or sorceror still hold there own against this one, as they are more structured and do not suffer a constant chance of failure in a spell, failures that could impact hit points, as well as a more well-defined number of spells they can cast per day.


Good points though - keep 'em coming.

 

[pyk]

My deepest, most sincerest apologies - apparently you perceived that I was presenting this class AS a finished, completed, balanced class. That is incorrect. I was posting it for consideration due to it's similarities. I know it's not finished, and I would appreciate if you would propose 'fixes' for these 'issues' you are pointing out...

That said, let me address some of the issues you pointed out.

Prepping spells - those conc checks would occur even when you went to sleep. For each spell, currenty, though that is a bit much in the way of rolling. Perhaps the conc check should incorporate the number of spells you have prepped? i.e. concentration check = 10 + highest level of spell + total number of spells? That would tend to stop the 'overpreparing' of spells, especially when you consider that the mage has to succeed at this check _anytime_ they are distracted, hit, confused, trying to go to sleep, etc. Most mages would, I think, wait till the last possible moment (the night before a dungeon?) to impress spells.

As for a first level mage casting a 5th level spells, did you check the DC on being able to cast it? A 1st level mage with the 20 cha you propose (not even counting the penalties you took to get there) would have only 5 mana available. You would need to succeed at a caster level check with a DC of 30 (25 + 5) and then spend 10 mana... Now you could spend 5 mana and 5 hitpoints, but it seems to me with a 20 CHA, you don't have the CON to provide more than a +1 hp modifier, so even if you somehow succeeded at that DC of 30 (how??) you'd knock yourself out casting the spell.

No - allowing a mage to cast above their level doesn't bother me. It tends to blur the 'linear' nature of the dnd magic system, and remains balanced (at least at lower levels).

As to why you would choose _any_ other class than this one? Clerics are still an awesome choice, as would be a rogue. Wizard or sorceror still hold there own against this one, as they are more structured and do not suffer a constant chance of failure in a spell, failures that could impact hit points, as well as a more well-defined number of spells they can cast per day.


Good points though - keep 'em coming.

Sorry, I did think it was a finished class.

Anyway, as to the overprepping, why not impose a limit to the total number that can be prepped? Such as a Spellcraft check against DC = 10 + ((highest spell level * total # spells) / Caster Level). Including Cantrips, which are spell level 1/2 for the purposes of the DC. Failure by more than 5 results in all spells triggering. That way, a first level caster can take ten on 3 first level spells, and still cast 6 Cantrips at will, for free. In line with Wizard. But, first level cannot take twenty and get 13. At level 20, this would still be quite powerful, though, but still better. This keeps the prepped spells in line with a high INT, like a Wizard.

On the point of first level casting a fifth level spell, you said earlier: To cast a spell, the mage chooses a spell and notes the spell level, including metamagic modifiers. She makes a caster level check (d20 + caster level + charisma modifier, DC = 10 + spell level) to see if she can successfully cast the spell (manipulate the magical energies). If successful, she expends an amount of mana equal to the level of the spell.

This is why I believed a first level Mage with 20 CHA (+5) could cast a fifth level spell. The DC of this spell is 15, and the caster check is d20+1+5, for a 'take ten' of 16, and the mana points are only 5 for a fifth level spell. For some fifth level spells, no problem. Cone of Cold, does 1d6 damage. Animal Growth, cannot even change one animal. But, would you let a first level caster put Cloudkill on the battlefield? That would kill all the opponents, one shot, and possibly even all the allies, too. Or let a first level caster Teleport?

Maybe make casting spontaneous to be DC = 15 + (spell level *2). This allows first level spells (DC 17) to be cast regularly by first level Mage with CHA around 16-17 (+3) with rolls of 4 or more. Increase the danger of casting beyond the limits to "If you miss the caster level check by 5 or more, a spell mishap occurs (See scroll mishaps in the DMG)". Have the mana taken away whether the spell works or not, also. This then allows some daring first level characters to attempt second level spells, with a fair chance at making it (rolls of 5-6 or better), and with a small chance of major failure. But stops those real daring casters from trying to get out a fourth level (rolls of 18-20 needed) and with great chance of mishap (rolls of 12 or worse). And the more powerful the spell, the worse the mishap.

And, the way I thought this class was, I didn't feel any other class was in a league with it, and anyone would be a fool not to have taken this class. Balanced, maybe.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

Sorry, I did think it was a finished class.

Heh - I finally figured out that you did. My bad for not being clear.

Anyway, as to the overprepping, why not impose a limit to the total number that can be prepped?

But there is one... The concentration check to 'keep' such spells - though admitted I'm not entirely happy with it. I've been trying to figure out how to allocate mana to such prepped spells as that would automatically limit it...

Such as a Spellcraft check against DC = 10 + ((highest spell level * total # spells) / Caster Level). Including Cantrips, which are spell level 1/2 for the purposes of the DC. Failure by more than 5 results in all spells triggering. That way, a first level caster can take ten on 3 first level spells, and still cast 6 Cantrips at will, for free. In line with Wizard. But, first level cannot take twenty and get 13. At level 20, this would still be quite powerful, though, but still better. This keeps the prepped spells in line with a high INT, like a Wizard.

While that has considerable merit, I'd prefer to drift closer to the KIS principle - keep it simple. It seems like there's a bit too much math in your example for my mage players.

What about just saying that a prepping a spell costs full mana, but 1/2 of that mana doesn't regen until the spell is cast?

On the point of first level casting a fifth level spell, you said earlier: To cast a spell, the mage chooses a spell and notes the spell level, including metamagic modifiers. She makes a caster level check (d20 + caster level + charisma modifier, DC = 10 + spell level) to see if she can successfully cast the spell (manipulate the magical energies). If successful, she expends an amount of mana equal to the level of the spell.

Ah but I also said A mage can also cast spells of a higher level than normal, but the caster level check DC increases to 25 + spell level, and the mana cost doubles. back in the description. This rather prohibits low level mages outcasting themselves

But, would you let a first level caster put Cloudkill on the battlefield? That would kill all the opponents, one shot, and possibly even all the allies, too. Or let a first level caster Teleport?

Absolutely not. Rather, there's a chance they can try to do so, but odds are good that they'll kill themselves too Nobody ever said playing with magic was 'safe'! At least, not in my world I'm playing in...

As for doing it differently, I liked some of your ideas, but see if you don't find that concept a little more limiting to the low level caster trying to outcast themselves than what you might of thought was there. I'd definitely want to keep that part as simple as possible, and if I can't, I'll just remove the ability to outcast oneself.

Ex: 1st level mage with CHA+5 and Int+5, Con+1 (touch unreasonable, but for the sake of discussion) has 5 mana points and 5 hitpoints. He has his masters spellbook (remember, he has to have LEARNED the spell, and studied it) and gets into a fight with his party. Out of desperation, he tries to spontaneously cast Teleport to escape. 5th lvl spell (5) times 2 (outcasting oneself) = 10 mana cost. He rolls his caster level check of 25+5 = DC30, and fails (as he would every time, because a first level mage cannot make a DC30 caster level check). He must still expend the mana though, so he burns off his 5 mana pool, then 5 more hitpoints to make up the difference. This reduces him to 0 and he finds himself dying.

There are no old and bold mages, there's only young and bold, mages.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

I just realized a further simplification to the whole outcasting concept...

Anytime you cast above your normal levels of spells, you must use hitpoints in place of mana pool.

Thus, the level 5 spell for a first level mage would cast 10 hitpoints (and still be an automatic fail due to caster level check DC30). Not a thing many mages would be willing to do, in my opinion. Think of trying to cast a 9th level spell. -18 hit points and DC34 on the caster check.

Perhaps even saying 'double per spell level above your normal' would be better? Thus 1st lvl mage casts teleport - it costs him (2) + (2) + (2) + (2) or 20 hit points to cast it? Higher level mages might be able to do so once or twice and get away with it, but lower levels wouldn't even try.

 

[rkanodia]

How about a system that lets wizards and sorcerors multiclass in a useful way, such that levels of Wizard give you access to more spells, while levels of Sorceror give you more flexibility in casting, but the overall effects stack?

I think I may have a decent idea. Please read on, and forgive me for any obvious numerical imbalances; I don't have my books and this is all off-the-cuff. Anybody who can improve on The Goal, tell me how.

The Goal: make a system where single-class Wizards and single-class Sorcerors are as mechanically similar to the official versions as possible, but allow them to multiclass in a way that combines their casting abilities into a single path instead of being a weak Wizard and a weak Sorceror.


Spell Preparation: Wizards and Sorcerors both prepare spells as the PHB Wizard.

Spells per day: Add your Wizard and Sorceror levels, and use the PHB Wizard spells per day chart. Levels of sorceror also give bonus spells; you can memorize two extra spells per day at each spell level that your Sorceror levels alone are sufficient to cast. (In English: if you are a wizX/sorceror6, you get two extra spells at the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd spell levels)

Spells known: Each time you gain a level of Sorceror, you automatically gain 2 spells known, only one of which may be from the highest level you can cast. Each time you gain a level of Wizard, you automatically gain one spell known. In addition, you may know up to 5 * Wizard level additional spells; these additional spells must be learned the normal way, with scribing costs and soforth. However, you may NOT scribe a spell at a given level if the number of spells you know at that level is equal to (or higher than) the number of spells you know at the level below. (In English: you can't scribe your fourth spell at level 7 if you only know three spells at level 6)

Spell Flexibility: Each time you gain a level of Sorceror, you get an increase in Spontaneity Points. Yes, I know that 'Spontaneity Points' is the worst name ever. I just don't want to call them 'mana' points. I don't know exactly how many it should be. Maybe something like 2+CHA bonus per level. Maybe it should scale with level. Spontaneity Points are using to power (drumroll, please) spontaneous casting. You may choose to cast a spell spontaneously, using a spell that you had prepared at the same (or higher) level, by spending spontaneity points equal to the spell's level. Each day, when you prepare your spells, your Spontaneity Points are restored to maximum.

Strengths: The player gets to choose their own 'happy medium' between breadth of knowledge and flexibility of casting. A pure sorceror should look a whole lot like a PHB sorceror, and a pure wizard should look a whole lot like a PHB wizard. A character can 'splash' a couple of levels without making a huge difference in their character, but can also multiclass heavily for a significant change.

Weaknesses: I guess pure Wizards will be unhappy, since they've gotten new limitations but no added abilities. Not to mention that Sorcerors get access to spells a level earlier than in the PHB. Can anyone think of a way to remedy these issues, or provide balancing powers/limitations?

 

[alkabong]

Tilla,

Some of your ideas are quite interesting, but I think that we're realling talking about changing the core way that magic works rather than simply modifying existing classes (which isn't bad of course, but not what I was originally shooting for).

A mage can choose to 'prepare' a spell, expending the chosen amount of mana at the time of preparation. They can add in metamagic effects or heightened mana expenditures at this time.
Preparing a spell is precasting the spell and hooking it to a final trigger. This allows the mage to cast it at a moments notice, regardless of the normal casting time required (always a standard action). However, these spells are difficult to maintain in this state, and any event that significantly disrupts the mage can result in the spell being lost (being hit, sleeping, getting drunk, etc.) Any such event causes a concentration check at a DC of 10 + the spell level + any damage taken. If the check is failed, all of the spells 'prepared' in this manner trigger in a chain reaction.

I wouldn't want to play a character who could lose all of his prepared spells like that! Perhaps if you took out the "chain reaction" it wouldn't be so bad, perhaps the highest level spell would be lost or something less disastrous.

It's my intention as a designer to allow a mage to cast both prepared and spontaneous spells from the same spell list (the spellbook) provided they have learned and studied those spells. However, this manner of casting should never significantly exceed the maximum spells per day allowed to either a sorc or wiz of the exact same stats.

I think it's quite unbalancing to allow any character, regardless of class, to be able to spontaneously cast from a virtually unlimited source of spells. That's why I used the sorcerer spells known table (and required many feats to be expended) before they can get access to that limited list.

The size of a casters mana pool is their character level times their CHA modifier. This can significantly alter the number of spells a mage can cast when compared to another, but the cap remains similar to that of a sorc of the same level, with greater flexibility.

You may want to consider something like the psionics rules, where the amount of points is based on your level from a chart, and you get additional points if you have a high ability score. Otherwise, you're looking at a very large difference between characters with similar levels and ability scores (i.e. two points of charisma = 20 points of mana difference at 20th level is too much)

Another point about this class is that it seems they can cast spells of higher levels before they "earn" that ability (i.e. can cast 5th level spells at first level?) Perhaps I misunderstand the class as written, but this seems like a very unbalancing idea.

I really like the concept of trading hit points to cast spells in an emergency - I'm not sure how that would fit into the standard casting rules as a feat or class ability, but it's got potential.