Wizard specialization incentives

[beaver1024]

Basically the designers think that specialist wizards are more powerful than generalist wizards in the core rules as it stands. Make of it what you will.

However if you think generalist wizards are more powerful than specialist wizards think on this, why is it that clerics get all the benefits of a generalist wizard and still cast as many spell as the specialist wizard?

 

[beaver1024]

So let me ask the original question with the following caveat: Using only the core books (no CA, CD, FRCS, etc.), is the specialist so obviously superior to the generalist? Every time I consider creating a specialist with the core books, I can't help noticing all the useful spells I lose - spells which don't have good alternatives in the core books. Opinions?

The designers disagree with you. Even with core rules, the specialist wizard is so much better than the generalist wizard that the generalist got a huge boost (see Elven Generalist Wizard racial substitution level in Races of the Wild).

 

[ThirdWizard]

My view is still that generalists are better than specialists. Spells/day can be made up with scrolls, wands, and staves. Losing spells due to specialization cannot. Yes, it costs gp and xp if you make them yourself. I don't see this as a big detrement.

Now, this does come at a few assumptions about the campaign.
1) There will be multiple kinds of challenges, and varied spells will help overcome these challenges.
2) There will be plenty of downtime to craft wands, scrolls, etc.
3) DMG wealth is being used as a guideline.

Any one of these things puts the generalist at a disadvantage if it isn't present.

Now, yes, you get scrolls and wands and such either way. I'm not saying that the generalist can catch up with the specialist in spell/day because of them. He can't. He'll always be 1 spell/level behind. But, two things:

First, the ratios change when you take into consideration scrolls on a wizard. So, a 5th level generalist may have 4/4/3/2 spells/day with 2 scrolls for each level, and the specialist 5/5/4/3 with 2 scrolls for each level. Where the specialist would have had a 3:2 advantage, now he only has a 5:4 advantage on 3rd level spells. I don't think this is something to take lightly.

Second, you probably arn't going to use all of your scrolls (and charges!) every day anyway, so it doesn't matter as much as one might think. If you've got a wand of invisibility, it matters much less when your illusion specialization gives you an extra invisibility per day. And, yes, the illusionist doesn't have to use invisibility, it can be mirror image or blur or a number of other illusion spells. But, the generalist can use that slot to cast a number of spells that the illusionist can't ever cast. Replace this with staves at higher levels.

So I just can't wrap my mind around the concept of specialists being so superior to generalists.

 

[Snowy]

[QUOTE/] But, the generalist can use that slot to cast a number of spells that the illusionist can't ever cast. Replace this with staves at higher levels.

So I just can't wrap my mind around the concept of specialists being so superior to generalists.[/QUOTE]

I think that the point people are trying to make is that the generalist hasn't got the slot that the specialist is using to prepare the extra blur/invis/etc in whereas the generalist could be memorising one of those in one of their normal slots.

And the argument that runs parallel to this one is that even though you've given up 2 schools is that there is enough cross over and cunning methods around "problems" that you can cope easily using the ones you do have.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I think that the point people are trying to make is that the generalist hasn't got the slot that the specialist is using to prepare the extra blur/invis/etc in whereas the generalist could be memorising one of those in one of their normal slots.

I'm just saying that that slot isn't the end all be all of power.

There's always something you're giving up that you can't make up. Every school has at least that one spell buried away that eventually you'll wish you had, even if its in quick passing. Oh sure, you can go on fine without it, many have. The only spell in the game that I couldn't do without is dispel magic and its kin. But, I've seen specialist wizards and generalist wizards, and I've never thought to myself that the specialist wizard is any better off than the generalist.

 

[Whimsical]

Another thing to consider is that specializing works better if you are multiclassing. Since you are not maxing out the caster level of your wizard class, there are certain spells that you are less likely to take, such as attack spells with saves. A wizard/combat class works best if you focus your spells on buffs and utility spells. If you are limiting yourself on spell selection, then you might as well drop the school of magic that you won't be using anyway to get that extra spell per spell level. This works especially well if you are only taking a single level of Wizard, such as a wizard 1/monk x that primarily casts Mage Armor, Shield, and Enlarge on himself.

 

[Elephant]

This works especially well if you are only taking a single level of Wizard, such as a wizard 1/monk x that primarily casts Mage Armor, Shield, and Enlarge on himself.

...in which case, why not be a sorcerer/monk?

 

[Roman]

Li Shenron, yes I believe that I no longer view specialists as underpowered compared to generalist wizards - just different as they should be.

Rystil Arden - thanks a lot I appreciate your work! Those charts were very helpful and do appear to show that specialists are indeed not underpowered - especially the second chart comparing the 'normal' specialist to the min-maxed generalist.

Absolutely Roman. The SP cost of a spell is equal to the spell's level times 2 minus 1. So a 9th-level spell costs 17 SP. 0-level spells cost 1/2 SP. You can actually use this system to convert all arcane spellcasters into a point casting class instead of fire-and-forget, although that is probably irrelevant right now. It is possible to follow the conversion to 20th-level, but misleading. This is because there is a standard formula for how many spells a wizard gains each level (slot of new level plus slot of one level lower at odd levels and slot of two highest levels at even levels) that is broken after level 18 (because there are no 10th-level slots at 19 so you wind up exactly 2 SP below where you should be). I can certainly do it if you consider this important, but I won't unless you give me the word, as it does take time to crunch the numbers. I can analyse for the most extreme case too, if you desire. The multiplier for gain comes out better for the generalist the more you min/max your Int (because those free specialist slots become less and less of a percentage of your total spells), but the total number of SP he is behind does not change.

Very interesting - however, using such a spell-point system in-game (although I really like it) would seem to disadvantage the sorcerors vis a vis wizards, don't you agree? Even though sorcerers would gain more spell-points under this system than wizards, the spontaneous flexibility gap (as opposed to flexibility of preparation where wizards have the advantage) between them would narrow thus making sorcerors relatively worse.

Oh, and Roman, I have to say that you are the most amiable and open-minded person who I have posted here with evidence against their original PoV, so I'm glad to do these calculations for you (they only took about 25 minutes).

Wow thanks! For my part, I am grateful for your helpfulness and explanations backed by calculations.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Make them give up only 1 school but give them standard benefits.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Indy: It wasn't the term number-cruncher so much as the fact that drooling and howling seems to make them out as mindless animals who can't see past the numbers. If that was not your intention then let me apologise.

Roman: If you wanted to use the SP system in play, Unearthed Arcana offers the good advice to give sorcerers even more of a boost to SP than they would usually get to make up for the gains that wizards get in flexibility.