Wizard Spells 10-16 Two Page Spread

[Campbell]

Unfortunately the rolling boulder trap attacks reflex. Doesn't make a lot of sense that Mirror Image would work in such a scenario. They should probably scrap it and try again.

Agreed.

 

[fafhrd]

"Traps are immune to Illusions."

Problem solved in five words.

It solves that problem. How many more don't we know about? Trampling monsters, swallow effects. If you try to nail down everything you end up with a mess.

 

[The Little Raven]

Oops, wrongs spell: that was Bigby's Grasping Hand.

Anyways I think the lack of Reflex going up in Mirror Image, is due to the fact that it never defended much against fireballs in the past.

And it doesn't defend against a rogue's ability to bypass armor, which is totally odd. Why wouldn't the rogue be fooled into attacking one of the images, simply because he's using a power that ignores armor?

And the "it didn't defend against fireballs" argument ignores the fact that 4e has changed it so the wizard has to aim with his spell. Just because a fireball is Reflex doesn't mean that Mirror Image should fail to work against Magic Missile, Sonic Orb, or Acid Arrow, all spells that require you to aim and attack a single target.

If my ranger can be duped into shooting an arrow through an image, then why can't the rogue be duped into missing with his dagger, or the wizard be duped into missing with his magic missile? Why does it help ARMOR (prevents successful attacks by being in the way of that dagger or arrow) and not REFLEX (prevents successful attacks by getting you out of the way of that dagger, arrow, or magic missile)?

 

[The Little Raven]

How many more don't we know about?

I don't see the point of this question, aside from the desire to discussion entirely fictional problems that might not actually exist in the game. There's no point in discussing "what could be," when it has no real bearing upon "what is."

 

[fafhrd]

My concern isn't merely idle speculation. They've stuffed the nearly the entirety of contest resolution into the 4 defensive stats. The benefit is that they're streamlined. The problem is that they're big buckets and can end up with some really nonsensical results. The boulder trap is like finding a roach in your kitchen. Sure you can kill it, but what does it portend?

 

[Graf]

I was trying to provide the most absurd case I could imagine, an attack vs will.
Yet text indicates,
that an image would wink out.

OK. I'm tracking now.
Honestly I just assumed that 'attack' in the spell meant 'attack roll vs AC'.
If you're right (and you probably are) then the wording needs to be changed.

Historically, the wizard wasn't making an attack roll, he was assumed auto-success and his target was given the task of determining whether he reduced the effect or not.

I think auto success is very loaded here.
Auto success with resist vs roll to hit for success is semantic.

I agree that the attacker is rolling now. But there is still a single target by target roll.
Who rolls?
Honestly I don't think it matters.

Now, the wizard is making an attack roll, so he is aiming and targeting with his spells. Magic Missile, for example, is a single-target Reflex attacking at-will spell. There's no reason it shouldn't be affected by Mirror Image (since you might have aimed it at one of the images).

MM was also never affected by Mirror Image.
If the magical blast swirls around the square for a second until it hits something solid then it would very much be like a fireball, where the nimbleness of the target in avoiding the moving ball of light is key.
Without seeing MM it's hard to argue that it "has to be affected by MI".

Except with things like Sonic Orb and Acid Arrow being single-target attacks that produce an AoE on a successful attack as a secondary effect. They still require to you aim and hit your target.

Do they?
Or are they like grenades, you throw it into a square, it'll probably hit someone and blow up, but it could miss.

... rogue's Piercing Strike.

This is a much better argument.
I have no defense against it.

-- in some cases.

This is the road to that-place-you-don't-want-to-go-right?

Otherwise the game gets infinitely complex (i.e. +3 to AC and +3 to Reflex against humanoids depending on sight for their weapon attacks).

I assume that they're just sticking everything into AC/Ref/Fort/Will to keep the game from bogging down.

It would be pretty easy to say "adds a +6 power bonus to AC and Reflex defense. Whenever an attack against AC or Reflex defense misses, this bonus decreases by 2."

It would.
I'm assuming the bonuses have been play tested and +6 to AC is as high as they want to go.
Generically speaking I'd assume that you'd have +3/2/1 if it was vs both Ref and AC.

Which is less dramatic/more fiddly. +6 is a big deal, even +4 is.
+3? not so much.

There is probably some other power that adds to both reflex and AC like blur, no?

At any rate I have a much better idea about why people dislike the spell.
I was thinking the complaints were broader; how it was explained or what have you (as opposed to just wanting it to be more powerful/versatile).

 

[Graf]

And it doesn't defend against a rogue's ability to bypass armor, which is totally odd.

I agree completely. It makes little story sense. You'd have to hand wave it with something about the rogues "uncanny shooting ability"

Still, it makes the rogue stand out.
In 3.0 the fighter with their iterative attacks was the best choice when you had some wizard with 9 mirror images wandering around.

Now the rogue's go to boy for that.

And the "it didn't defend against fireballs" argument ignores the fact that 4e has changed it so the wizard has to aim with his spell.

I think you're over emphasizing what the roll means.
Just because the wizard is rolling doesn't mean they're aiming.

They fireball 20 goblins. Do you really think they're supposed to be targeting every lick of flame in each square, all at once?
It's an abstraction.
It keeps the players rolling the dice and cuts down on the DM's workload.

With the bolder for instance, the boulder isn't "aiming" for the player.
It's just rolling along.
The "reflex attack roll" totally represents someone diving out of the way.

It's just a reflex attack instead of a saving throw because the system as a whole is set up to be streamlined that way.

 

[The Little Raven]

My concern isn't merely idle speculation.

I understand that. But discussing a problem that might not even exist doesn't really serve any purpose, and merely gets some people worked up over problems that may not even be there. We've got enough people jumping to false conclusions based on outdated/debunked information as it is... launching into long discussions about theoretical problems will just acerbate the problem.

They've stuffed the nearly the entirety of contest resolution into the 4 defensive stats. The benefit is that they're streamlined. The problem is that they're big buckets and can end up with some really nonsensical results.

It's no different than 3e, with one difference: consistency. The same boulder trap would be causing you to make a Reflex save in 3e, which is a different way of saying the same thing. Any bonus to Reflex saves (whether they made sense against a boulder or not) helped you.

The boulder trap is like finding a roach in your kitchen. Sure you can kill it, but what does it portend?

To me, it's more of stepping on something in your kitchen and assuming it's a roach, because it's too dark to actually see what it is. You might have stepped on a peanut shell and assumed you had an infestation when you didn't. Let's get the lights on before we call the exterminator, I say.

 

[The Little Raven]

MM was also never affected by Mirror Image.

Because it was an auto-success. No saving throw. No attack roll. Just "I use it, it hits, game over."

And you have to realize that it is not like that anymore. It's a blast of magical energy that you have to direct and aim, instead of relying on Gygaxian Spell Theory to get the job done for you.

"You launch a silvery bolt of force at an enemy."
"You hurl an orb of magical force at an enemy."
"A shimmering arrow of green, glowing liquid streaks towards your target and bursts in a spray of sizzling acid."

It's pretty clear you're aiming at a particular target with these spells.

Without seeing MM it's hard to argue that it "has to be affected by MI".

...except that we HAVE seen it. I gave the flavor description above. It's an Intelligence attack versus Reflex that does [2d4+Int modifier] force damage, and counts as a basic ranged attack.

Do they?

Some, yes.

Sonic Orb does nothing on a miss, but produces an AoE on a hit.
Acid Arrow does minor damage on a miss, but produces an AoE on a hit.

Magic Missile is a single-target attack only. It's a basic ranged attack, just like the ranger firing an arrow without using an exploit.

 

[The Little Raven]

I think you're over emphasizing what the roll means.
Just because the wizard is rolling doesn't mean they're aiming.

And I think you're too fixated on fireball, since that's the spell that constantly comes up during this argument, despite us having no idea what the 4e version actually does.

Magic Missile and Sonic Orb do exactly nothing when you miss. Since they are attacking Reflex, the reasonable assumption one would make is that when you fire off an MM or an SO and miss, then you've actually missed your target because your aim was off/he dodged out of the way.

Therefore, reasonably, one would assume that firing an MM or an SO at an MI'd wizard would make him harder to hit, since you've got to pick from 4 targets (real and 3 images)... but that's not the case. For some reason, the effect of those illusions duplicates plate armor's ability to deflect blows, rather than Reflex's ability to avoid them.