Wizard vs. Monk...Winner?

[Aust Diamondew]

I'd say 60-40 odds in favor of the wizard.

I remember in my old campaign a PC wizard (level 21) fought a vampire spell stiched monk (level 18 or so), in an arena type setting. It was a good fight but the wizard won. It was in 3.0 and disentegrate was instant kill against undead, which was sorta suprising given the villainous monks high touch AC (who have low fortitude saves due to no constitution scores).
It wasn't a battle the wizard should have got himself into or one he should have won, but he got a lucky touch attack, beat SR and the monk didn't have enough luck on his save.

 

[Artoomis]

ZuulMog, explain how that can deal with Contingency Dimension Door + Forcecage? Etherial doesn't help against force effects, remember. A wizard needs only one action to win. Contingency gives him that action. That action can be used for Time Stop, and while in Time Stop, everything the Wizard needs is available.

Boots of Teleportation
Any character wearing this footwear may teleport three times per day, exactly as if he had cast the spell of the same name.

Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Wondrous Item, teleport; Price 49,000 gp;Weight 3 lb.

So much for Force Cage.

Contingency is limited to 6th level spells, so Dimension Door certainly works - as would teleportation, for that matter.

With preparation, the wizard likely wins. Without, the monk likely wins.

 

[dcollins]

My ex-group from Florida and I actually had this debate and all spenk like 2 weeks playtesting little tournaments from level 20 monks and level 20 wizards. We each got to make 1 of each. It was PHB and DMG only...

Great stuff, thanks for posting!

 

[Saeviomagy]

So much for Force Cage.

Contingency is limited to 6th level spells, so Dimension Door certainly works - as would teleportation, for that matter.

With preparation, the wizard likely wins. Without, the monk likely wins.

?? If you mean by "without preparation" that the wizard has no spells and is drained from a serious combat, sure - but I think you'll find that's pretty much the case no matter whom he's fighting. I think you'll find, however, that most wizards have a contingency on them as a matter of fact once they can cast it - it's an all-day, every-day sort of thing.

And whoever said "5 stunning attacks" really needs to check their rules. Stunning fist only works once a round.

I'd also like to point out that any non-wizard who can't fly and see invisible at 20th level is pretty much asking to be torn apart by the average high level challenge. I'd additionally expect every 20th level character to have some 'get out of jail free' card - a dimension door, etherealness, freedom of movement or something similar.

I think a well built and intelligently played wizard will win with almost a 100% success rate in an arena combat. Simply put - he is in a position to expend more resources on the combat, and expending those resources doesn't leave him dead.

Almost every other class has a great deal of resources that are not transitory in nature - a monk can't blow his unarmed combat damage all in one combat for extra damage, nor can he do so with his AC, movement speed etc. And if he blows his hitpoints on a fight, he's just lost

A wizard's class is almost entirely made up of his spells. He gets little in feats, no AC, no hitpoints, no skill points. Nothing to soup him up, except his use-them-and-lose-them spells.

In short - if a wizard blows 90% of his resources on a fight, he's out of spells but alive. His saves, ac, feats and skills are such a small amount of his class package that he's still got room for some hitpoints - he can sacrifice almost everything else and still have some left. If a monk does the same, he's out of stunning fists, abundant steps and most importantly of all - hitpoints. The remaining 10% of his class is his permanent bonuses that he cannot sacrifice in favour of hitpoints. So he's dead, and he loses.

 

[Thanee]

Abundant Step and ...

... your turn ends right there. Then the wizard kills you.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

So much for Force Cage.

Don't forget the quickened Dimensional Lock coming along with the Force Cage.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I think there are a couple of things that heavily favor the wizard in an arena combat.

The first is, as mentioned by Saeviomagy, the fact that a wizard is a class of limited resources. Over the course of the day, the monk is (theoretically) balanced against the wizard due to the fact that the wizard can't normally blow everything he has in one fight, and expect to be useful for the rest of the day. He has to conserve his power so he can continue to contribute throughout the adventure. In this state, he is (in theory) balanced with the other classes.

The arena breaks that, by allowing a wizard to throw everything he's got into a single battle. In this scenario the wizard can bring a lot more firepower to bear than the monk. The monk can't throw four encounters' worth of kung fu at the wizard. The wizard can throw four encounters' worth of spells at the monk.

Secondly, a wizard's spells are hindered by unpredictability. If the wizard is going to be fighting a barbarian, or a dragon, he's going to prepare different spells. In an adventuring scenario, there are almost always going to be spells that the wizard guessed in the morning would be useful, but turn out to be unnecessary or ineffective for whatever reason. This, too, helps balance the wizard's capabilities.

The arena setup breaks that too. The wizard's player knows what he's facing. A single monk opponent. This means that his entire spell load is going to be tailored to kicking a monk's behind into next week. The monk, meanwhile, cannot tailor his abilities specifically to fight a wizard. He can't trade in his ki strike (lawful) for something else more suited to beating on wizards.

These points, taken together, lead me to believe that this kind of arena bout really doesn't say anything about class balance. Yes, in a one-on-one arena matchup, the wizard is king. But since I've never played in a game that consisted of nothing but arena battles, this comparison is relatively unrelated to the actual playing of the game. An interesting exercise, but in the end relatively meaningless.

So what do you guys think? What would happen? Why do people think Monk's are overpowered, when I always thought they were one of the single best stand-alone classes?

I'm going to assume you meant "underpowered" in the above quote. I think the main reason is the disparity between what the class does, and players' expectations of the class. When people think of the monk, they think of Bruce Lee or Qui Chang Kane or even Jet Li or Jackie Chan. In short, they're expecting someone who can put a serious beat-down on baddies, with a kung-fu flavor.

Instead, the class is built as a skirmisher/scout. So when folks get to playing a monk, they find him extremely weak for what they want him to do. In 4e, I'd really like to see the monk made into a prestige class based on the fighter. Make it a frontline fighter class. That's what people are expecting, and folks are going to continue to be disappointed so long as the class's function remains contrary to expectations and flavor.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Not in the core rules, and if there was a custom item it would be ridiculously expensive (probably an epic item).

There's an easy, 100% core way for ANY class to get Antimagic Field up. It's called a Ring of Spell Storing (Major).

Which basically means that ANY class is capable of taking down a wizard provided I) They can close with the wizard, II) Prevent the wizard from escaping nonmagically (grapple or trip for instance), and III) Depending on how possible contingencies work out/can be avoided.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Instead, the class is built as a skirmisher/scout. So when folks get to playing a monk, they find him extremely weak for what they want him to do. In 4e, I'd really like to see the monk made into a prestige class based on the fighter. Make it a frontline fighter class. That's what people are expecting, and folks are going to continue to be disappointed so long as the class's function remains contrary to expectations and flavor.

The monk has NEVER been anything other than a skirmisher-type class. Not since it's inception in 1e. The problem is that people see a high unarmed base damage and a high number of attacks and think "Oooh, this guy must be good at fighting."

 

[Bryan898]

I'd actually put it at a 60-40 in favor of the monk myself, but I'd use different tactics.

For the Monk:

If I were building the monk myself, I'd use my Empty Body ability to go ethereal first thing. Then close with the wizard/ sorceror.

Next, I'd use Quiverring Palm instead of Stunning Blow. I can't see why people are talking about Stunning Blow, when Quiverring Palm is the same DC but an instant death. The Monk could just as easily have a DC 30 on this ability. Fort or die wizard, and suddenly it's a game of initiative.

Saves need to be maxed... unfortunately Monk's have MAD. Still with magical items, your saves should each be around 20+. Invest in a scroll of Protection from Spells and Use Magic Device and possibly add +3. Most wizard saves will be in the 21-30 range at this level, 34 tops if they dump everything into it.

For the Wizard:

As for the choice of spells most people are using for the wizard, they're not the optimal choice... check your ranges.

Stoneskin is worthless since the Monk has ki strike (adamantite). While Displacement and Mirror Image are better choices provided the Monk doesn't have an item that provides true seeing (which I would invest in).

Finger of Death is 75', easily within the 90' movement of a 20th level monk. If he makes the save you could take a whole lot of hurt you can't afford with d4 HP.

Force Cage is also close, while Dimensional Anchor has a ranged touch, and a Monk's touch AC at this level could be in the 30's. You'd be better off chancing the monk's save vrs and instant death spell.

Horrid Wilting would possibly be the best damage dealer, and sure fire way to wear down the monk while keeping distance (1200 ft away Mwuhahaha!!!). Now if only D&D didn't have -1 to Spot check for every ten feet putting you at a -120 Spot check... The Monk could Hide without ranks, and run full speed and you'd literally never see him coming.... and you can't target what you can't see.

Contingency teleport eh? Whenever he gets close? So the monk closes.. you teleport away, then what? Cast another contigency and another teleport? Then you have to cast Another teleport to go back into the battle. Roll init, and if you lose again, the monk can run 500 feet to get close (which he can do in a round), and your teleported again! There goes four or more spells. Not too mention a smart monk would immediately Hide when the Wizard disappears. So when you return you have to find each other again (see the -1 to Spot for every 10 feet), so teleporting in 5,000 feet away will do you no good.

Time Stop- you can cast area spells and buffing spells, YAY! Almost all area spells that are worth their salt are Reflex saves, and if the monk makes it he takes no damage, if he fails half. Horrid Wilting on the other hand....

Meteor Swarm- risk a touch attack or a Reflex save with a 9th level spell for potentially low damage...

My choice of spells- Bigby's Crushing Hand- suddenly the Monk's not-so-mobile as he has NO chance against a +40's grapple. Prismatic Sphere- because... yeah... you can't run through that much pain. Quickened True Strike and Otto's Irresistable Dance or Imprisonment if you'd like to chance a save.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.