Wizard vs. Sorcerer for Newbie

[zyzzyr]

Hi all,

I have a new player in my group that is currently playing a level 6 elf wizard. The rest of the group consists of: half-orc barbarian, dwarf fighter, and elf druid.

Anyhow, I have suggested that she switch to a sorcerer (probably Monte Cook's since she'd also get more hp) since I think they're easier to play - don't need to learn and prepare spells. However, she would get spells later and have less of a variety.

Can anyone else suggest pros and cons about the switch? I don't want her to feel that the DM is pushing this on her, as it's completely her choice, and getting the advice of the many other people on this board might help.

Thanks!

zyzzyr

 

[arwink]

Depends on why she wants to be a wizard.

Most of the people I've introduced to 3e, when asked what they want from a magic using character, seem to want a sorcerer. Not a lot of powers, but the the ability to blow things up a lot seems to carry more wait. They're more interested in having the powers and using them than versatility.

Once, however, there's been someone playing a sorcerer who really wanted to play the wizard archetype - learning more about magic, developing their powers, knowledgable about many things. In this case, the switch happened.

 

[laiyna]

Most people I know are the reverse of above. A sorcerer has only 1 casting more then a wizard, and got less spells then a wizard so they are fairly weak. But a sorcerer is more a magical type of character that gives a better feal about magic.

But then again, I also never did encounter a sorcerer till now who took before level 6 or 7 an offensive spell. (at level 6 magic misile, at 7 fireball).

The wizard got faster the higher level spells, and the fact that he can use instant instead of a full round action for spells makes it stronger.

The main advantage for you is in fact that the player needs to learn less spells (and is forced to use them creativily), and in that fact is more easy to play for a starting character.

Laiyna

 

[Tsyr]

Just curious, but...

If she is currently playing the wizard, why are you suggesting she switch? Is she having problems? I mean, if you don't want it to seem like you are pressuring her into it, why even bring it up?

 

[Quickbeam]

Tsyr asks a great question -- unless the player is having a problem with her wizard, why propose the change? I personally prefer the sorcerer for my own array of reasons, not the least of which is flexibility, but that deosn't mean I'd try to influence someone else's character class choice. If this player is finding herself consistently frustrated by memorizing a less than optimal mix of spells, a change may be in order. Otherwise, let her grow with the wizard...the more rapid access to powerful spells might offset some of the problems she's facing.

 

[Zad]

Sorcerers and wizards each have a preparation issue. But a different sort.

Wizards have to choose their spells each day. This gives them flexibility to meet new situations but only with some advance notice. They can adapt their spell loadout as they progress in levels, and can always get a new tool for a specific job.

Sorcerers have supreme flexibility during the day. But they have to spend a great deal of care choosing what spells they learn in the first place. They have to select a spell that's useful today and 5 levels from now, because once they pick it, they are stuck with it for life. Sorcerers are cut off from a lot of situationally useful magic since they can't afford to learn a lot of situational spells lest they be entirely useless.

Frankly, having done a little of both, I think the wizard is actually easier. You can adapt the character better in the long term. Sorcerers that made a bad choice early are stuck for life with it.

 

[zyzzyr]

Hi,

Well I was hoping to show this thread to my player to see all the pros and cons, but ...

Yes, she is having problems playing a wizard. I would not suggest it otherwise. I do mention in my original post that I am recommending a class that is easier to play - the implication is that the wizard is likely too complicated. Quickbeam hit it right on the nose - she usually memorizes a suboptimal spell list. If she doesn't get help from the other players on what to memorize, then she has problems. For example, they agree to sneak up on a castle first thing in the morning, but she doesn't prepare her invisibility spell. The problem is that her unfamiliarity with the spells combined with spell tactics make it very complex to play a wizard. Note this isn't about getting every square inch out of her spells, it's about being able to cast more than 1 spell/day because you prepared the wrong ones. Not only that, but sometimes the other players/characters get upset that she has not memorized appropriate spells, which is somewhat understandable.

I am hoping that the switch to sorcerer will be a better introduction to the game. She only needs to learn the spells she can cast, and doesn't need to worry about which spells to prepare for given situations.

The big problem is, given the group, she loses versatility, which could be quite important.

Anyhow, if anyone can see pros or cons I haven't mentioned, I'd appreciate it.

Cheers,

zyzzyr

 

[jmucchiello]

The big problem is, given the group, she loses versatility, which could be quite important.

What I want to know is why is a newbie playing a wizard at all? My general rule for introducing someone to gaming (a newbie) is to give them a fighter or roguish type. If they really want to cast spells I steer them toward cleric or druid. Wizard and Sorcerer are very hard for someone new to the game to wrap their head around. To play either well, you need to know all of the spells in order to chose among them wisely. There's no way to know what is a useful spell unless you've seen i

 

[StalkingBlue]

Whoah.
Players getting upset because she plays like what she is - a newbie!? And you wonder why she is having trouble learning?

Forgive me for being outright, but it can't be much fun for her to learn the game in your group.


Don't even think about approaching her about changing classes. From what you post, she's already too unsure of herself to be thinking straight, and if you take her class away she will feel even more of a failure.

Instead, first have a heart-to-heart with your other players and get them to act in a mature manner.
You may want to remind them that friendly in-character suggestions are a whole lot more constructive than after-the-fact nagging. ("I say, d'you think you could whip up one of those wonderful invis spells for me tomorrow? Brilliant.")

Then think up a spell prep list for the newbie player - or better, three lists. Spell prep for sneaky days, spell prep for all-out combat days, spell prep for urban adventuring days.
Be sure to leave some spell slots free for her so she can choose spells freely in addition to your "tried and true" combo, and make sure she remembers she can always fill the extra slots with more of the "tried and true" spells if she wants. That'll give her a chance to experiment a bit and grow towards managing spell prep all on her own.

 

[Marius Delphus]

You've run afoul of the most common problem with new players and spellcasters: unfamiliarity with the spell list. It's true that a lot of players in this situation simply want a character who can "make magic" and don't really have the "book learning" aspect in mind. Some, however, do, and I agree you certainly don't want the player discarding or changing character concept in midstream.

At level 6, the character probably doesn't (and a new player shouldn't!) have *that* many spells. Have you suggested/prepared a spell "cheat sheet" for this player? Such a sheet might include the "one liners" from the PHB spell list (only for the spells the character knows), and a few blank boxes next to each to record preparation/expenditure. Such sheets can be useful for any spellcaster, not just wizards played by new players.

How about a quick copy/paste job from the SRD, to give the player a customized "spellbook"? One or two spells per page should result in plenty of white space so the player can take notes if so inclined. "Very Useful" or "Rarely Useful," that kind of thing. Many players dislike the idea of "studying" (working) to more effectively play their characters (have fun), but you might suggest this as well.

If keeping the wizard, this player may be in need of some advice regarding daily spell preparation. I get the impression (though please feel free to correct me) that this player feels a little lost in all the options available. A little guidance might be in order here, though as noted it's important to always let the player make the final decisions for her character.

If making the switch from wizard to sorcerer, consider making the "leftover" spells available as scrolls: the character can still use them (once each) at any time, and replacing the scrolls could become an issue if one or more of them are particularly useful (though of course the *really* useful spells should end up in the sorcerer's Spells Known list).

A more radical approach might be to keep the character a wizard but remove the need for daily preparation. Because this combines the best feature of the sorcerer with the versatility of the wizard, it will probably end up making the party a bit more powerful, especially if you institute this for the druid as well. The only remaining differences between the wizard and sorcerer will be the size of the spellbook, number of spells/day, and number and use of metamagic feats. If all that is okay with you, consider giving this variant a test drive. It worked quite well for me in 2E....

EDIT: StalkingBlue's pre-fab spell prep lists are an excellent idea. I also second the sentiment that it seems as though the other players are being awfully harsh to the new player. IME, elf spellcasters are fairly common choices for new players for some reason. We're all here to have a fun, positive experience after all.