Wizard Woes

[Wednesday Boy]

I still think using Intelligence modifier to initiative makes sense.

1. Use highest of dex/int for initiative modifier.

I've wondered about this as well. It seems to me that if you can get behind the logic of Dex/Int for Reflex Def, it isn't a stretch to apply DEx/Int to Initiative as well.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

You could endlessly debate which stats make logical sense for what bonuses, and you could easily conclude any number of different things. If you really want to get down into it the whole model of a character as a bag of 6 numbers isn't terribly realistic either. But we have to start somewhere and we have to end up with playable rules that let players envision their characters in a consistent enough way to let them role play.

The game's designers had to make SOME choice, and they chose DEX to supply an init bonus. It is fairly consistent with the idea of 'high dex characters are quick on their feet'.

I think the problem is if you start allowing everyone to use an alternate stat for this and that and the other thing, then pretty soon all you have done is erased all the trade offs people have to make when they build their characters. Either you'll end up with just 2-3 stats that can supply every bonus anyone will ever want, or every character will just have every bonus there is under the sun no matter how they build their character. At that point why have stats at all?

 

[Wednesday Boy]

I think the problem is if you start allowing everyone to use an alternate stat for this and that and the other thing, then pretty soon all you have done is erased all the trade offs people have to make when they build their characters. Either you'll end up with just 2-3 stats that can supply every bonus anyone will ever want, or every character will just have every bonus there is under the sun no matter how they build their character. At that point why have stats at all?

I see what you mean and it was one thing that had me up in the air about 4th Ed. before it was released. But with defenses chosen from two attributes and prime attacks based on a specific attribute, hasn't 4th Ed. done this already to a large extent? It seems to me that if the scale was going to tip towards the "why have stats at all" side of things it would have happened already. Dex/Int for Init. doesn't seem like the straw that broke the camel's back to me.

 

[Cadfan]

Quick story: Yesterday our party had a fight in two different rooms at once, connected by a 10 foot wide entry. We cleared the easier room, then retreated to the other. The paladin and fighter took up defensive positions, and the cleric put down Consecrated Ground (zone that heals allies and does damage to enemies) in the entrance. The blocked room was a dead end. The wizard then proceeded to absolutely pound the stuffing out of everything in the other room. All the defenders had to do was hold the line and not die while the wizard threw area effect spells into the other room like there was no tomorrow.

Turned a brutally tough encounter into a cakewalk. Its all about the teamwork.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

No, I don't think allowing one bonus to be shifted to a different stat will totally break the game in and of itself, but if you allow it once for one stat, then players will inevitably want the same 'favor' applied to their favorite stat/bonus as well... It is a slippery slope as I see it.

IMHO the better approach to the whole issue is to provide enough variety of powers that several build paths exist for each class based on leveraging different stats. Maybe in a perfect world you could pretty much build any class around any pair of stats, the primary and one secondary, but I doubt that will be feasible. At least for each role there should be a way to build a good character based on most any stat, albeit he may have to be a certain class/build and probably will work best with certain specific races.

Basically I want to see what PHB2, DP, and AP provide. Then it will be more clear where any 'holes' are and they can be filled in with a few custom powers/reskinning of existing powers, or maybe a feat here and there.

 

[Wednesday Boy]

Basically I want to see what PHB2, DP, and AP provide. Then it will be more clear where any 'holes' are and they can be filled in with a few custom powers/reskinning of existing powers, or maybe a feat here and there.

That's true, I'm with ya.

 

[Bleoberis De Ganis]

I get your point in stats being used for everything everywhere, but I'm not suggesting that at all. I had that feeling at first, but just because something has always been done a certain way does not mean it is right. I don't mind it happening here and there if there is a logic to it.

The thing is, why should a wizard be considered slow for having a low dexterity, when everything he does has absolutely nothing to do with being physically fast. You could sit him in a deck chair and it wouldn't slow him down because he is using his mind and intelligence, not prancing about like a rogue. My logic for using intelligence makes sense, I'm not just trying to get special benefits by cheating.

Besides, Intelligence has lost more than it's gained. If you are worried that dexterity is being given a rough rap in all this then I partly agree. I can't understand why dexterity doesn't adjust a character's movement - it would make more sense for the dexterity based strikers like the rogue and ranger for nipping about, but I suppose their nippiness comes in the form of the powers they use.

I can't think of a good reason why Strength, Constitution, Charisma or Wisdom would apply to initiative. Wisdom is the closest - but no - I still wouldn't even allow wisdom as it just wouldn't be logical 'enough'.

To be honest I would rather all the skills didn't have a particular ability tied to it, but rather have the ability chosen on a case for case basis based on how that skill is being used at any given instance, but this is all off topic so I'll leave that there.

 

[mlangsdorf]

To those of you who have two area spells (Scorching Burst and Thunderwave) and no single-target spell: How often do you find yourself unable to act effectively because there is only a single target remaining and it is flanked? I'm thinking specifically of Solos and tough Elites, but it could just be the last normal monster standing at the end of the encounter.

The last normal monster, flanked by your allies, is really not the wizard's concern. He's likely going to die anyway. If you insist on helping, walk up there and do an Aid Another.

I'd say that in play, our AoE happy wizard usually gets to hit at least one target as long as there are worthwhile foes remaining. Especially as you get into mid-heroic and higher, there are lots of Large or bigger monsters around. If your allies set up their flanks right, you can put AoE spells on Large foes while your allies are flanking. Our group recently killed a young red dragon, with multiple PCs engaging it in melee while the wizard kept a Stinking Cloud obscuring half of it.

 

[Blackbrrd]

Blackbrrd- do you mean 2d6+ 6 damage for the standard action usage of Flaming Sphere?

The 1d4+ 6 damage at the beginning of an opponent's turn does help a lot when you can park the Sphere next to 2+ opponents, like Blackbrrd says.

No, I meant the 2x 1d6+6 from using Scorching Burst on 2 opponents. Its a rare occasion when I can't find two (or more) opponents to use it against. Using the Flaming Sphere standard action for much more random* 2d6+6 damage is a backup plan.

Usually I would say that a party (and certainly a player) should try to focus fire on one opponent. The exception is probably the wizard. A wizard should try to soften up the enemies as much as he can. Let the rest of the party attack one foe at a time. Your job is to soften them up so they are quick kills.

*I find that I hate doing no damage, so I would rather go for two chances to do about 65% of the damage I get from a single big hit. It also makes sense to make combat less random for a player character. (the more random combat is, the higher the chance that you get a combat where you consistently can't hit anything.)

 

[Prestidigitalis]

I'd say that in play, our AoE happy wizard usually gets to hit at least one target as long as there are worthwhile foes remaining. Especially as you get into mid-heroic and higher, there are lots of Large or bigger monsters around. If your allies set up their flanks right, you can put AoE spells on Large foes while your allies are flanking. Our group recently killed a young red dragon, with multiple PCs engaging it in melee while the wizard kept a Stinking Cloud obscuring half of it.

I assume that the arrangement you allude to would be something like this?

X empty
A flanking ally
S scorching burst
M monster (large)
M intersection of monster and scorching burst

    XSSSXX
    XSSSXX
    XS[COLOR=Orange]MM[/COLOR]XX
    XAMMAX