Wizards and ECL sux

[jabberwocky]

I suspect that in part, that's because of the "PC wealth" that is also factored in.

An ECL race character will have the same wealth as any other PC of that level.
From the SRD:
Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character.

 

[Spatzimaus]

It also really depends what you want to use the character for. If you want to be the "pure caster", then yes, any ECL hurts you. But, not everyone is hung up on always having the highest level of spell.
It's like the debate over whether your Sorcerer X-2/Rogue 2 is better than a Sorcerer X; as a caster, the pure-class is stronger, but the one who spent a couple levels on Rogue has other benefits. The Sorcerer/Rogue mix is a lot like a Bard, and I know some people who are perfectly happy playing Bards; they'll never be the best casters in the group, but that's not a problem for them.

Monster levels simply replace the Fighter/Rogue type of levels. I've only played one campaign with a monster PC. His name was "Tweety" (nickname, not actual name), and he was a Giant Owl Psion. (Quick show of hands: how many people remember that Giant Owls have INT 10? As a Psion he could cast without hands, material components, or words.) He took Leadership, and his cohort was a Cleric/Rogue who rode on his back. Everyone assumed Tweety was just an exotic mount. Of course, once I hit Psion 8 and got Polymorph Self, things got even more confusing.
Anyway, Tweety wasn't really a pure caster; he was like a Ranger 15, but I got that by mixing seven or eight levels of Psion with a half-dozen "levels" of Giant Owl. It was just a different way of making a hybrid class. It still made for an entertaining character, though.

 

[Technik4]

My thoughts

I think as others have said, the ECL is a good system but even under 3.5 isn't perfect. But there is more to life (and gaming) than perfect systems. I think there are many great reasons to play races with ECLs, it can really spice up a campaign or allow someone to do something totally radical. I think if youre playing half-ogres and drow as you would orcs and evil elves you are just looking to abuse the system. Playing a monstrous evil race (or a neutral nature-y race) is an opportunity to step outside the usual boundaries of character backgrounds and stories.

That said it is difficult to mix spellcasting and ECL. However this somewhat shows the human desire for spells and magic. A centaur wizard (for instance) is tougher, faster, stronger, etc than a human wizard of the same level. Of course, if compared early on, the centaur wizard doesnt have beans for spells. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be a hoot to play a centaur apprentice in the party!

Anyway just a reminder to look beyond the numbers sometimes. There are reasons to play ECL races even if you come out a little behind in the end, they just don't have to do with the personal power of your character.

Technik

 

[Hypersmurf]

So yes. ECL creatures suck. They pay too much for what they have now, and there's no classes they can take to allow them to keep up with normal character progression.

Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale...

-Hyp.

 

[Simulacrum]

I think letting a share of monster adding half their hit die and / or LA stack with one of their spellcaster classes level would just do fine.
So there would be no way the bonus wold grow over +10 levels (ECL20) and it would hurt the spellcasting THAT much.

Creatures like the rakshasa show that it works out pretty pretty good.

Anyone noticed that the rakshasa is in fact the SUPER DOPPELGANGER for just +6 ECL more?

Detect thoughts at will
Change Shape at will
as the doppelganger
in addition you get supreme spellcasting abilities, better starting abilities,
you are an outsider AND your levels stack with the sorcerer levels you get!
+super DR 15/good piercing
+ SR 27

That kicks ASS... what do you want more?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

The ECL system is inherently broken.

....snip....

If you want balanced play, don't allow ECLs. A few of the low ECL classes can work, but any race that gives an ability score bonus above +2 or gives the character an ability not normally available to PCs at low levels will likely unbalance the game.

I disagree. If you want to decide whether something is unbalanced, you cannot use a blanket rule like "more than +2 on a stat is broken". Btw: your rule would rule out orcs as a player race (+4 Str)

well, the trouble with finding a wizard ecl race is that almost no monsters have innate wizard spellcasting - theyre all sorcerors.

If you think about it, that only makes sense.

Right.

But see.....I wasn't going to use them as PCs........

I guess the point is: adding class levels to monsters to make them tougher? It ain't easy. Some of those class levels are just "XP freebies", if you ask me.

"Oh no! That Ogre Mage has 2 levels of sorcerer! Now he's CR 10, or ECL 14! The level 8 PCs are toast!"

Not.

There you go: if you want to make a monster tougher, you don't use level adjustment or ecl. You use CR, and nothing else.

Adding a class level to a monster will raise the CR by 1 per class level if the class add's to the monster's strenghts, or by 1/2 per cl if it doesn't. So if you want to knock that minotaur up another notch with your spice-wizard, you use two levels for one cr-increase - BAM!

 

[Gromm]

Right.

But see.....I wasn't going to use them as PCs........

I guess the point is: adding class levels to monsters to make them tougher? It ain't easy. Some of those class levels are just "XP freebies", if you ask me.

"Oh no! That Ogre Mage has 2 levels of sorcerer! Now he's CR 10, or ECL 14! The level 8 PCs are toast!"

Not.

Well the thing with creatures like that is you REALLY need to think out of the box. You try to make him a Sorceror first and he's going to suck. If you use his Sorceror levels to augment his Ogre Maginess, he'll do better. Theres a lot of low level spells that are just ok for casters, but rule for fighter types. I've seen some scary Fighter/Wizards in 3.0. Tons of buffs and combat enhancing spells. Course the thing in they generally favored Wizard over fighter, which is the problem with the Ogre. He's favoring Fighter over Wizard, which generally just makes him a worse fighter. Still mix in some scrolls or wands... and now you're talking real fun.

 

[jabberwocky]

Quote:
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Originally Posted by jabberwocky
well, the trouble with finding a wizard ecl race is that almost no monsters have innate wizard spellcasting - theyre all sorcerors.
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If you think about it, that only makes sense.

Well, in most cases I would agree with this, but I think that in some cases sorceror spellcasting is chosen just because monsters always use it. In some cases it doesn't fit - like the Immoth. They have spellcasting ability because they search for frozen words of power embedded in the plane of ice (i.e. they learn magic through research rather than having inherent power), and their ice runes ability specifically says that they can use it with 'spells that they have prepared' - which sorcerors can't do. If they were wizards (which I think they should be), they would be a good wizard ECL race.