D&D 5E Wizard's at will damage cantrips concern

[GX.Sigma]

I understand where you're coming from - the only thing I can think of is that at low levels, most wizards / spellcasters will be as good at using a bow as a non ranged specialized martial character, or close to it, and that should actually give sages an option in combat. That said, I wish I had even realized that when I was helping folks make characters - it didn't even cross my mind till earlier today.

I think they should separate out attacking cantrips from non attacking cantrips, and give spellcasters a choice of a single attacking cantrip, and like 4 non attacking cantrips. Might be the best way to handle the situation?

Or just make them a little worse, so they're on par with utility cantrips, so it's not an auto-choice. And make crossbows viable at all levels (by not scaling damage on cantrips).

 

[Klaus]

Yeah, but what I'm saying is that even a wizard player who wants to be a sage will go "why would I take read magic when I can have ray of frost?"

But why? If the player doesn't like the fact that the cantrip exists, why would be tempted by it? Wouldn't he go "I'm so glad I can take these utility cantrips, instead of taking pew-pew ones!"?

Mind you, if DDN followed the 4e system, where attacks and utilities were separate categories and you had to choose from both, I'd understand some players feeling bummed for being forced into taking pew-pew spells that went against their character's flavor. But if the player wants a laser-free wizard, he has the option of making one.

As for scaling, I understand why it's there. Maybe some cantrips could scale *less*, though.

 

[GX.Sigma]

If you don't want to take an attack cantrip... then don't. And if the rest of your group starts bitching at you... tell them to go screw themselves.

It's not the rest of the group bitching at you. It's the fact that you know it's better, and not taking it is a clearly suboptimal choice.

The difference between a Ray of Frost and a crossbow bolt is not so great

It is after 5th level (which is the whole point of this thread).

But why? If the player doesn't like the fact that the cantrip exists, why would be tempted by it? Wouldn't he go "I'm so glad I can take these utility cantrips, instead of taking pew-pew ones!"?

Because he knows that the pew-pew is much more useful, so he would have to intentionally make his character worse (which some players will do, but no one likes doing).

It's like that time in Magic: The Gathering when Affinity was the best deck by far. I wouldn't like the fact that it existed, but I'd be an idiot not to play it. The only reason I wouldn't play it is if I felt like making a point, and I'd go into it expecting to lose.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Because he knows that the pew-pew is much more useful, so he would have to intentionally make his character worse (which some players will do, but no one likes doing).

It's like if there was a Magic card that did 20 damage for 1 mana. I wouldn't like the fact that it existed, but I'd be an idiot not to play it. The only reason I wouldn't play it is if I felt like making a point, and I'd go into it expecting to lose.

Bad analogy. Ray of Frost in no way equates to "20 damage for 1 mana" in terms of power and you know it.

And this guy needs to get over himself. If he has desires for a certain character design but his ego can't handle "playing poorly"... that's on him. The rest of us aren't going to suffer just to make him feel better about himself.

 

[Klaus]

It's like if there was a Magic card that did 20 damage for 1 mana. I wouldn't like the fact that it existed, but I'd be an idiot not to play it. The only reason I wouldn't play it is if I felt like making a point, and I'd go into it expecting to lose.

Apples and oranges. Magic is a competitive game where the purpose is to defeat the other player. D&D is a cooperative storytelling game where the purpose is to have fun pretending to be someone else.

Usefulness depends on the campaign and the group's style. Are Ray of Frost, Chill Youch and Shocking Grasp good damaging cantrips? Yes, no doubt about it. If DPR is your thing, they're awesome. But if you prefer versatility or exploration to pure damage, there are other, perfectly fine choices.

But saying "there's a powerful pew-pew cantrip, therefore I *have* to take it" seems to be putting DPR ahead of character concept.

 

[DEFCON 1]

It is after 5th level (which is the whole point of this thread)

And at 6th level the Mage is going to have 10 spells per day, which will handle most people's "pew-pews" without even needing to use cantrips at that point. So switching from crossbow to normal combat spells for many mages will not result in much problem at all.

If you need more "pew pew" every day than what you'll get from having 10 spells at 6th level... then on the contrary... having attack cantrips at your disposal will be a BOON, and not a hindrance.

 

[Wulfgar76]

It's not the rest of the group bitching at you. It's the fact that you know it's better, and not taking it is a clearly suboptimal choice.
It is after 5th level (which is the whole point of this thread).
Because he knows that the pew-pew is much more useful, so he would have to intentionally make his character worse (which some players will do, but no one likes doing).
It's like that time in Magic: The Gathering when Affinity was the best deck by far. I wouldn't like the fact that it existed, but I'd be an idiot not to play it. The only reason I wouldn't play it is if I felt like making a point, and I'd go into it expecting to lose.

Your whole argument vaporizes when you look at whats actually going on at higher levels.

Lets look at 10th level, the point at which Attack Cantrips start doing a devastating 3d8 damage. Thats an average of 14 damage if you hit.
At level 10 battles and monsters have evolved to the point where 14 is pretty irrelevant, not much better than a crossbow bolt.

Now figure that a 10th level Wizard has daily spells of 4/3/3/3/2, plus 5 more levels due to Arcane Recovery. That's a daily spell every round for 20 freaking rounds (five 4-round battles).

Is doing 14 points of damage, after blowing through TWENTY encounter-busting bombs really going to ruin your game?

You could make an argument at that stage of the game, Minor Illusion and Read Magic may just be more useful than the laughable effect a 3d8 cantrip has.

 

[am181d]

Or just make them a little worse, so they're on par with utility cantrips, so it's not an auto-choice. And make crossbows viable at all levels (by not scaling damage on cantrips).

The reason that cantrips scale is to KEEP them viable. Your solution would just mean that cantrips AND crossbows become increasingly useless.

 

[gweinel]

And this guy needs to get over himself. If he has desires for a certain character design but his ego can't handle "playing poorly"... that's on him. The rest of us aren't going to suffer just to make him feel better about himself.

Well, maybe this would be the case if you see it from the players point of view, but I am talking about how this feature maybe disrupts a certain kind of playstyle (the low magic one). It has to do with the kind of atmosphere of the setting that the dm wants to built.

What I was thinking was something like Wulfgar said allowing these kind of cantrips to be used xInt/wis/cha modifier per day or even maybe to rise a bit the dmg and make it 1st lvl spell. The thing that i would really like is this kind of "power loss" from this houseruling to be tranfered to the normal daily spells system.
Anyway...

 

[Thyrwyn]

It's not the rest of the group bitching at you. It's the fact that you know it's better, and not taking it is a clearly suboptimal choice. {snip} . . . the pew-pew is much more useful, so (you) would have to intentionally make (your) character worse (which some players will do, but no one likes doing).

To clarify: not choosing the pew-pew would make your character sub-optimal in combat. Whereas choosing the pew-pew makes your character sub-optimal in other aspects of the game. To some people/groups that matters.

I can see the OP's point in regards to the feel he is trying to create - and there have been several useful suggestions as to how he could address them based on what we have now. But really, until we see the final rules we can't really say how those cantrips fit into the bigger picture. Good luck - it sounds fun.