D&D 5E Wizard's at will damage cantrips concern

[Klaus]

Yes, there are circumstances where a player will not take the superior option. But that does not excuse the fact that there is a superior option.

I'm not disputing the fact that these spells are superior for combat. I'm disputing the fact that they are all-around superior, because usefulness in combat is not the only measure of a spell.

Case in point: in one of my playtests, the wizard had shocking grasp and ray of frost, and she did indeed spam ray of frost a lot. After the game, she asked to trade out ray of frost, because she thought it was boring, and because she wanted to be more versatile. So clearly, while excellent in combat (hence the spamming), it wasn't the superior cantrip *for her*.

 

[ppaladin123]

I'm not disputing the fact that these spells are superior for combat. I'm disputing the fact that they are all-around superior, because usefulness in combat is not the only measure of a spell.

Case in point: in one of my playtests, the wizard had shocking grasp and ray of frost, and she did indeed spam ray of frost a lot. After the game, she asked to trade out ray of frost, because she thought it was boring, and because she wanted to be more versatile. So clearly, while excellent in combat (hence the spamming), it wasn't the superior cantrip *for her*.

I agree...while I'd take ray of frost as one of my cantrips (depending on the number I get, which depends on race and school of magic chosen), I'd never take it before ghost sound or light. The wizard solves problems that can't be easily solved with violence so he is not playing to his strengths if he just focuses on being a flashy archer.

 

[Mistwell]

That's more a problem with Read Magic not making any sense. It says you can use it to read an encrypted spell... so why would all wizards not encrypt all their spells?

Here's what the rules say:

"Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a spell, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a level you can normally cast, if it appears on the mage’s spell list, and if you can read it (some spellcasters use secret alphabets and ciphers to record spells). "

And from Read Magic:

"For the duration, you can decipher magical writing on that object that would otherwise be unintelligible, including a spell from someone else’s spellbook, a spell on a scroll, mystical runes on a magic item, or a magic glyph. "

Those that don't encrypt their scrolls and spell books presumably intend to sell the item, or use them to teach with. Others encrypt, particularly those typically found in locales where evil is afoot.

And if the answer is that all wizards do encrypt all their spells, then why don't all wizards learn Read Magic?

Because they don't want to force it on you. As I said, those teaching by use of scrolls probably would not encrypt, or else you would learn the encryption as part of your training and so could read them without read magic. So you don't NEED Read Magic to become a wizard, but if you want to copy encrypted scrolls you're likely to find while adventuring, probably smart to learn that cantrip. Your choice, but I'd say Read Magic is the better spell if you plan to be a Mage for a long time, particularly since you can copy another cantrip into your spellbook and then you know that cantrip as well.

How do wizards learn new spells at all if they can't read magic?

From masters who either don't encrypt their spells or teach them the encryption so they don't need a spell to decrypt it.

 

[Falling Icicle]

Yeah, but what I'm saying is that even a wizard player who wants to be a sage will go "why would I take read magic when I can have ray of frost?"

Read Magic is a terrible example, because it's a terrible spell that doesn't even deserve to be a spell at all. Deciphering scrolls and other such things should simply be an Intelligence check. You shouldn't need a spell to do that.

Now, compare ray of frost to some of the good utility cantrips, like mage hand, minor illusion and prestidigitation, and it's quite a different story, isn't it?

 

[Falling Icicle]

But by that point, 1st-level spells aren't "encounter-busting bombs" any more (a 2d4+2 magic missile is worse than a 3d8 ray of frost, even taking into account the chance to miss).

This is true of damaging spells. But there are plenty of other 1st level spells that are just as useful at level 20 as they are at level 1, such as charm person.

And FYI, Magic Missile does 3d4 + 3 damage; the spell creates three darts, not two. Cantrips don't do comparable damage until 10th level, and even then, magic missile still has the advantage of automatically hitting.

Anyway, that's just theorycraft. In my game, the Mage (7th level with a few extra spell slots from magic items) uses ray of frost multiple times in every combat. He also has the read magic cantrip, which he has used twice in the entire campaign (and that's only because of generous DM interpretation, like letting him read writing on magic items to get clues as to their function).I don't understand what you're saying here (and I disagree that D&D is a "storytelling game," but that's for another thread). Maybe I'm not making my point clearly enough.

Yes, there are circumstances where a player will not take the superior option. But that does not excuse the fact that there is a superior option. If you're a game designer, expecting players not to take the superior option is insane. This is called "dominant strategy," and it's a well-known principle of game design, and the foundation of game balance. What I am trying to say is that I don't think the cantrips are balanced (and I think it's weird that no one seems to agree with me, because it looks so obviously broken to me).

Sure, there's a good reason why you might take minor illusion over ray of frost. But why would you take shocking grasp over ray of frost? Why would you take dancing lights over light? Why would you take read magic at all?So you agree that not a mage who doesn't take ray of frost is playing poorly? If so, why do you acknowledge that the balance is poor, but not agree that it should be fixed?

Read magic, as I mentioned in my previous post, is a terrible spell that IMO shouldn't even exist. So I agree with you there. Shocking Grasp is a bit worse overall than ray of frost due to its touch range, however it does have a much nastier debuff, which can make up for it. I can imagine a dwarf wizard in full plate going into melee combat and being pretty effective with that spell. As for dancing lights, I wouldn't say it's strictly worse than light. After all, you can move it around and it doesn't have to be cast on an object. It can be useful to create a diversion, especially against many of the less intelligent monsters out there. Light lasts longer but that doesn't matter all that much when you can cast either spell at-will.

 

[ExploderWizard]

The cult of PEW PEW is too strong to oppose. The majority of playtest respondents want to see it so there it is.

Actual D&D is still available to those that want it so no use fighting a losing battle.

 

[Kobold Stew]

I am happy for the game to have damage cantrips, and there is an easy fix which makes taking them a design choice rather than the most reasonable choice for a mage who wants to do damage in combat:

make the spell an ranged attack roll (based on Dex) and not based on the primary spell casting slot.

As a result:
* not all spell casters are equally effective at scoring damage.
* it becomes a design choice (so you build a laser cleric differently from other clerics, for example)
* those who want to deal damage can do so and it becomes an aspect of game mastery: designing a spell caster requires balance and more thought, and it is not simply a question of pumping the primary attribute.

I've suggested this though a few packets, and I really think it does fix the problem people are poking at here: those that like the spells still have them, but it becomes a choice and not a suboptimal self-effacement.

 

[steeldragons]

The cult of PEW PEW is too strong to oppose. The majority of playtest respondents want to see it so there it is.

Actual D&D is still available to those that want it so no use fighting a losing battle.

Hear, here. ["...must spread some around yada yada"]

 

[DEFCON 1]

The cult of PEW PEW is too strong to oppose. The majority of playtest respondents want to see it so there it is.

My preferred version of D&D is still available to those that want it so no use fighting a losing battle.

There ya go, EW... fixed that typo for ya.

It's a common spelling mistake. Not surprised you haven't learned it yet. Heh heh.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I'm not the authority, WotC is, and their compiled playtest data tells them in no uncertain terms that the majority of their customers prefer at-will attack cantrips.

You are not wrong, stupid or bad - but you are in the minority.

No, he isn't. If anything, WOTC has data from their forums, which are full of 4e players, which are definitely a minority of D&D players. At will, damaging cantrips do not belong in D&D and are one of the main reasons my group will be passing on it. Passing on those spells is not a viable option. It would be like Miguel Cabrera choosing to use a wiffle ball bat.