D&D 5E Wizard's at will damage cantrips concern

[Wulfgar76]

What I was thinking was something like Wulfgar said allowing these kind of cantrips to be used xInt/wis/cha modifier per day or even maybe to rise a bit the dmg and make it 1st lvl spell. The thing that i would really like is this kind of "power loss" from this houseruling to be tranfered to the normal daily spells system.
Anyway...

Eliminate attack cantrips and give casters 1 additional daily spell slot.

But trust me when I tell you that attack cantrips are not that powerful.

 

[gweinel]

Eliminate attack cantrips and give casters 1 additional daily spell slot.

But trust me when I tell you that attack cantrips are not that powerful.

Maybe if I eliminate attack cantrips and give an extra 1st lvl slot? I think i like this kind of approach.

Thank btw

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Yes he is, and so are you.
Every playtest has included At-Will damage cantrips. They are one of the few 4e-isms that is generally well-liked by the participants of the playtest. A clear majority prefers them - WotC has said as much.


Says who?


We are talking about cantrips here. They are of minimal importance compared to the Wizard's repertoire of daily spells.

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What makes you the authority on what's in the minority and what isn't? I can tell you from many many years of experience plus many cons later that I am not in the minority.

 

[GX.Sigma]

Your whole argument vaporizes when you look at whats actually going on at higher levels.

Lets look at 10th level, the point at which Attack Cantrips start doing a devastating 3d8 damage. Thats an average of 14 damage if you hit.
At level 10 battles and monsters have evolved to the point where 14 is pretty irrelevant, not much better than a crossbow bolt.

Now figure that a 10th level Wizard has daily spells of 4/3/3/3/2, plus 5 more levels due to Arcane Recovery. That's a daily spell every round for 20 freaking rounds (five 4-round battles).

Is doing 14 points of damage, after blowing through TWENTY encounter-busting bombs really going to ruin your game?

You could make an argument at that stage of the game, Minor Illusion and Read Magic may just be more useful than the laughable effect a 3d8 cantrip has.

But by that point, 1st-level spells aren't "encounter-busting bombs" any more (a 2d4+2 magic missile is worse than a 3d8 ray of frost, even taking into account the chance to miss).

Anyway, that's just theorycraft. In my game, the Mage (7th level with a few extra spell slots from magic items) uses ray of frost multiple times in every combat. He also has the read magic cantrip, which he has used twice in the entire campaign (and that's only because of generous DM interpretation, like letting him read writing on magic items to get clues as to their function).

Apples and oranges. Magic is a competitive game where the purpose is to defeat the other player. D&D is a cooperative storytelling game where the purpose is to have fun pretending to be someone else.

Usefulness depends on the campaign and the group's style. Are Ray of Frost, Chill Youch and Shocking Grasp good damaging cantrips? Yes, no doubt about it. If DPR is your thing, they're awesome. But if you prefer versatility or exploration to pure damage, there are other, perfectly fine choices.

But saying "there's a powerful pew-pew cantrip, therefore I *have* to take it" seems to be putting DPR ahead of character concept.

I don't understand what you're saying here (and I disagree that D&D is a "storytelling game," but that's for another thread). Maybe I'm not making my point clearly enough.

Yes, there are circumstances where a player will not take the superior option. But that does not excuse the fact that there is a superior option. If you're a game designer, expecting players not to take the superior option is insane. This is called "dominant strategy," and it's a well-known principle of game design, and the foundation of game balance. What I am trying to say is that I don't think the cantrips are balanced (and I think it's weird that no one seems to agree with me, because it looks so obviously broken to me).

Sure, there's a good reason why you might take minor illusion over ray of frost. But why would you take shocking grasp over ray of frost? Why would you take dancing lights over light? Why would you take read magic at all?

And this guy needs to get over himself. If he has desires for a certain character design but his ego can't handle "playing poorly"... that's on him.

So you agree that not a mage who doesn't take ray of frost is playing poorly? If so, why do you acknowledge that the balance is poor, but not agree that it should be fixed?

 

[Wulfgar76]

What makes you the authority on what's in the minority and what isn't? I can tell you from many many years of experience plus many cons later that I am not in the minority.

I'm not the authority, WotC is, and their compiled playtest data tells them in no uncertain terms that the majority of their customers prefer at-will attack cantrips.

You are not wrong, stupid or bad - but you are in the minority.

 

[Mistwell]

Yeah, but what I'm saying is that even a wizard player who wants to be a sage will go "why would I take read magic when I can have ray of frost?"

Because with Read Magic you can copy Ray of Frost into your spellbook when you find it in some evil wizard's scrolls or spellbook. But without it...good luck, because you won't likely be able to read it to copy it without Read Magic.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Speaking purely from a public playtest material standpoint...

It's really hard for folks not to end up taking at least one of the damage cantrips, if not both. I think the best choice for Wizards at this point is to just increase the number of cantrips casters start with. As an odd side effect of Mage Armor, since DEX is arguably the second most important attribute for a wizard, it's not uncommon for a wizard at 1st level to be firing a crossbow almost as effectively as a fighter at 1st level.

The key word being *almost*. With flatter math, a +1 or +2 difference is significant, especially at 1st level.

I'm personally OK with the design either way, though I do think it's more flavorful, and not unbalancing, to have a wizard at-will cantrip similar to a crossbow (or an auto-hit with half that damage). The cantrips shouldn't scale in damage without using higher level spell slots, though, IMO.

(That is the basic design approach I took in Mages & Monsters, so I'm biased of course. My answer to the fighter comparison was to give all fighters a "Weapon Skill bonus" that only they get, so when compared to another class of the same level and ability score the fighter will always be 5% better with a weapon.)

 

[n00bdragon]

I must say I'm honestly astounded that anyone would take Ray of Frost except RP reasons, much less that anyone would think it essential to a wizard. Minor Illusion is clearly far and away the best spell a wizard who wants to Win (yes, with a capital W) at D&D would take.

That said, Minor Illusion on a cantrip is completely and utterly OP and should be restricted for balance reasons. Ray of Frost? Not so much. If the wizard has to stoop to dealing damage like a mundane peon how could that possibly be broken? It's certainly not terribly magical.

 

[GX.Sigma]

Because with Read Magic you can copy Ray of Frost into your spellbook when you find it in some evil wizard's scrolls or spellbook. But without it...good luck, because you won't likely be able to read it to copy it without Read Magic.

That's more a problem with Read Magic not making any sense. It says you can use it to read an encrypted spell... so why would all wizards not encrypt all their spells? And if the answer is that all wizards do encrypt all their spells, then why don't all wizards learn Read Magic? How do wizards learn new spells at all if they can't read magic?

I must say I'm honestly astounded that anyone would take Ray of Frost except RP reasons, much less that anyone would think it essential to a wizard. Minor Illusion is clearly far and away the best spell a wizard who wants to Win (yes, with a capital W) at D&D would take.

That said, Minor Illusion on a cantrip is completely and utterly OP and should be restricted for balance reasons. Ray of Frost? Not so much. If the wizard has to stoop to dealing damage like a mundane peon how could that possibly be broken? It's certainly not terribly magical.

You're probably right. But Ray of Frost is at least #2, and you get to pick 3.

 

[ppaladin123]

Because with Read Magic you can copy Ray of Frost into your spellbook when you find it in some evil wizard's scrolls or spellbook. But without it...good luck, because you won't likely be able to read it to copy it without Read Magic.

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