TwoSix
Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
The efficacy of spells in a siege environment doesn't seem particularly relevant to virtually any D&D situations.
D&D 5E Wizard's at will damage cantrips concern
ExploderWizard
Hero
Of course not! Everyone knows that resource management and siege situations in a roleplaying game are badwrongfun and wouldn't come up ever. ALL D&D games are a series of plotted, choreographed encounters arranged by the DM to ensure such situations cannot arise. Why didn't I remember that?
TwoSix
Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Dude, chillax. I'm just saying SIEGES don't happen very often in D&D games, not even the dungeon-crawling OSR experience.Of course not! Everyone knows that resource management and siege situations in a roleplaying game are badwrongfun and wouldn't come up ever. ALL D&D games are a series of plotted, choreographed encounters arranged by the DM to ensure such situations cannot arise. Why didn't I remember that?
Klaus
First Post
In a siege, an infinite 50-foot-range, 1d8-damage ray of frost seems somewhat inferior to a 80/320-foot-range, 1d8 damage light crossbow. The spell's range would barely reach the base of a curtain wall, let alone the bulk of a sieging army. If the crossbow-toting wizard stays out of sight, he can even negate the disadvantage for shooting at long range, and can pepper an enemy with crossbow bolts before the enemy gets within 50 feet of him (each round begins hidden, steps out, shoot, steps back into hiding).
ExploderWizard
Hero
What happens if the crossbow toting wizard runs out of ammo? How do you rate a crossbow sans ammo against that ray of frost? 50 feet is a darn sight better than the wizard could throw that crossbow.
A siege doesn't have to be a grand affair with an army, catapults, and a castle either. It could be a few guys (like a party) trapped in a dead end mine with a bit of cover at the entrance and a superior force outside. It could be in a city, with one side being trapped in a building with the exits covered by opposition that may be suicidal to just run out and engage.
The concept of a siege is simply being between a rock and a hard place and it is a common one in many genres.
When a particular magical effect is completely AT WILL with 0 resource considerations it affects the world in ways beyond the standard door/monster/treasure D&D assumptions.
Klaus
First Post
What happens if the crossbow toting wizard runs out of ammo? How do you rate a crossbow sans ammo against that ray of frost? 50 feet is a darn sight better than the wizard could throw that crossbow.
A siege doesn't have to be a grand affair with an army, catapults, and a castle either. It could be a few guys (like a party) trapped in a dead end mine with a bit of cover at the entrance and a superior force outside. It could be in a city, with one side being trapped in a building with the exits covered by opposition that may be suicidal to just run out and engage.
The concept of a siege is simply being between a rock and a hard place and it is a common one in many genres.
When a particular magical effect is completely AT WILL with 0 resource considerations it affects the world in ways beyond the standard door/monster/treasure D&D assumptions.
Well, for one thing, anyone using ammunition is wise to buy a whole damn lot (say, 60?) and keep replacing the sheafs.
Secondly, that 50-foot-ray of frost is good for exactly zero against an enemy 51 feet away (possibly shooting back crossbow bolts, arrows or even rocks).
As I said upthread: is ray of frost a great combat cantrip? Yes, definitely. Is it a no-brainer? Not really. It has advantages and disadvantages, and any player worth his salt will adjust to make the most of his preference.
ExploderWizard
Hero
Hey Presto, you seem to be out of ammo. Why don't you ask the bloodthirsty orcs outside if they mind you making a store run?
TwoSix
Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Yea, I was talking about actual sieges, not metaphorical ones.
Lots of spells screw up world-building, even when they aren't at-will. Continual flame, fabricate, wall of iron, etc. What's one more thing to tacitly ignore so we can get on with playing?
GMforPowergamers
Legend
Hey Presto, you seem to be out of ammo. Why don't you ask the bloodthirsty orcs outside if they mind you making a store run?
If you are besieged with no escape by bloodthirsty Orcs, and your last line of defense is the wizard with only cantrips left... I propose the Orcs already won... if there are no other weapons left.
keterys
First Post
At the point where your argument requires that the comparison archer has run out of ammunition (in D&D!), that the party has no melee they can use, and is relying on the wizard to use short range cantrips to save themselves... you've already lost your argument. Heck, at that point using illusions and mage hand to pick ammo up for your comrades may be more effective.
It's _fine_ to say that infinite combat magic breaks your worldview.
It's also fine for someone else to say that wizards cranking crossbows breaks their worldview.
Thankfully, at the moment, the rules support both sides just fine. One side can skip ray of frost, the other can jump on ray of frost.
In the meantime, the elf in the party will scratch his head, make sure he's covered in quivers like usual and wish his wizard _used actual spells_ instead of messing around with crappy cantrips during life or death struggles in which he'll run out of arrows in another 200 rounds.
It's _fine_ to say that infinite combat magic breaks your worldview.
It's also fine for someone else to say that wizards cranking crossbows breaks their worldview.
Thankfully, at the moment, the rules support both sides just fine. One side can skip ray of frost, the other can jump on ray of frost.
In the meantime, the elf in the party will scratch his head, make sure he's covered in quivers like usual and wish his wizard _used actual spells_ instead of messing around with crappy cantrips during life or death struggles in which he'll run out of arrows in another 200 rounds.
