D&D 5E Wizard's at will damage cantrips concern

[ExploderWizard]

Yea, I was talking about actual sieges, not metaphorical ones.

Metaphorical? You do realize that being trapped somewhere for a period of time is an actual siege and not just a metaphor right? The physical trappings do not define what a siege is.

Lots of spells screw up world-building, even when they aren't at-will. Continual flame, fabricate, wall of iron, etc. What's one more thing to tacitly ignore so we can get on with playing?

It is the nature of magic to make the normally impossible become possible. Thats why it is magic after all. The difference is that with those examples, no matter if you used magic or not to achieve those effects there is a cost involved. A spell slot is a resource cost. Completely at-will magic is absent any such consideration.

I'm not against the concept of cantrip magic that has minor effect, that is less powerful, and takes less power, than a first level spell. In my own B/X house rules, magic users power points for such effects equal to 10 + character level so their capacity to power them rises with level. This allows the performance of enough minor magical effects to last a decent adventuring day without making them infinitly spammable. A thing without cost is used without consideration. If the use of something has a cost, however minor, then using it still requires a decision.

IMHO no magic ever should be completely free of cost or consideration.

 

[TwoSix]

Metaphorical? You do realize that being trapped somewhere for a period of time is an actual siege and not just a metaphor right? The physical trappings do not define what a siege is.

I disagree. And X gets the square!

It is the nature of magic to make the normally impossible become possible. Thats why it is magic after all. The difference is that with those examples, no matter if you used magic or not to achieve those effects there is a cost involved. A spell slot is a resource cost. Completely at-will magic is absent any such consideration.

I'm not against the concept of cantrip magic that has minor effect, that is less powerful, and takes less power, than a first level spell. In my own B/X house rules, magic users power points for such effects equal to 10 + character level so their capacity to power them rises with level. This allows the performance of enough minor magical effects to last a decent adventuring day without making them infinitly spammable. A thing without cost is used without consideration. If the use of something has a cost, however minor, then using it still requires a decision.

IMHO no magic ever should be completely free of cost or consideration.

That's great for your version of the D&D genre. That's why Next is modular, to allow those players to change the system to fit their version of what fantasy looks like.

 

[Klaus]

Hey Presto, you seem to be out of ammo. Why don't you ask the bloodthirsty orcs outside if they mind you making a store run?

"Hey, Presto, your spells seem to fizzle in front of that orc archer who's peppering us with arrows. Why don't you ask him if he could take a couple of steps forward so you don't feel left out?"

Works both ways, mate.

 

[TwoSix]

No, he isn't. If anything, WOTC has data from their forums, which are full of 4e players, which are definitely a minority of D&D players. At will, damaging cantrips do not belong in D&D and are one of the main reasons my group will be passing on it. Passing on those spells is not a viable option. It would be like Miguel Cabrera choosing to use a wiffle ball bat.

Yea, "Modularity is great, unless I have to make the changes" is a common enough attitude that it's a major reason I don't expect Next to do well.

 

[Cybit]

Yea, "Modularity is great, unless I have to make the changes" is a common enough attitude that it's a major reason I don't expect Next to do well.

I feel like a keep under siege that runs out of crossbow bolts is far more screwed than just one wizard's ability to hold off orcs with a crossbow. Like, you're in a bloody keep. There should be hundreds of bolts. Also - how many rounds of firing crossbows are you talking about? 60? That seems like a pretty crappy D&D session.

I think you guys are just looking for reasons at this point; which is fine, but if you don't like it, just say it breaks your personal concept of D&D and that's that.

Please don't try to come up with extreme corner cases that are "common", because, I'm really sure running out of crossbow bolts in a siege is a super common occurrence, and that necessitates the usage of a cantrip at all times.

 

[Mistwell]

Tell that to a crossbowman with a broken crossbow or one who has run out of ammo during a siege.

Tell that to the wizard who loses or breaks his spellbook, or his focus (a component pouch, orb, rod, staff, or wand), which he needs to cast spells effectively. At least the crowssbowman has a much better chance of replacing his crossbow or ammo in a typical location.

I'd rather use the d8 light crossbow with the better range, and be able to cast minor illusion (false walls!) or light (toss a red-light-rock at your enemies in the dark, and they're the ones everyone will target - and then dismiss it instantly at the perfect moment). Or even Read Magic - scrolls of other cantrips can't be THAT hard to find, as they should be the most common scrolls.

 

[Minigiant]

For campaign reason, I am planning to make classic magic user subclass for the mage that grants Extra Attack for mage and racial weapons only and let them load crossbones as a free action. I need it for my Magic Arrow guild.

There's also a True Strike homebrew cantrip that defaults your next attack roll to 15'
I wish crosbow wizard was a core subclass though.

 

[dd.stevenson]

At the point where your argument requires that the comparison archer has run out of ammunition (in D&D!). (snip)

I may have misunderstood you. Surely you're not claiming that ammo scarcity is antithetical to the D&D franchise?

 

[Fanaelialae]

Metaphorical? You do realize that being trapped somewhere for a period of time is an actual siege and not just a metaphor right? The physical trappings do not define what a siege is.



It is the nature of magic to make the normally impossible become possible. Thats why it is magic after all. The difference is that with those examples, no matter if you used magic or not to achieve those effects there is a cost involved. A spell slot is a resource cost. Completely at-will magic is absent any such consideration.

I'm not against the concept of cantrip magic that has minor effect, that is less powerful, and takes less power, than a first level spell. In my own B/X house rules, magic users power points for such effects equal to 10 + character level so their capacity to power them rises with level. This allows the performance of enough minor magical effects to last a decent adventuring day without making them infinitly spammable. A thing without cost is used without consideration. If the use of something has a cost, however minor, then using it still requires a decision.

IMHO no magic ever should be completely free of cost or consideration.

You could pretty easily rule that it has a material component requirement (rename it to Frost Arrow and make the component an actual arrow). That should solve the issue of the infinite Ray of Frost for anyone who takes issue with it.

Personally, I don't have a problem with it, but I'm the kind of guy who doesn't require players to track ammo either. Saying that no one would take utility cantrips over damage cantrips is a bit like saying no one would ever take Water Breathing over Fireball. There might be some general truth to it, but what's the alternative? Siloing attack and utility spells into separate resource categories? I don't think that's too popular an alternative.

I'm happy for the damage cantrips, since I always found the crossbow-wielding mage to be a bit silly and genre-breaking (IMO).

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I'm happy for the damage cantrips, since I always found the crossbow-wielding mage to be a bit silly and genre-breaking (IMO).

Both are silly. A true magic user should use a dagger or a staff.