Wizards in 4E have been 'neutered' argument...

[Nifft]

The wizards powers still sweep the chafe before him ... but the chafe no longer seems to include his peers... is that bad?

Not to rub it in until it becomes an oozing sore, but I think you mean "chaff".

Otherwise, largely agreed. It's not that Wizards have lost power in the world, they've merely lost power over the other PCs.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Garthanos]

Not to rub it in until it becomes an oozing sore, but I think you mean "chaff".

Otherwise, largely agreed. It's not that Wizards have lost power in the world, they've merely lost power over the other PCs.

Cheers, -- N

heh heehh...fun yup.

 

[Plissken]

Funny. When 4e first came out the typical response to complaints about the Wizard being nerfed was: "Dude. The wizard is still very powerful! Check out this and this power, combined with this with an implement and Int Mod of +4, the wizard is so freaking deadly." Now it's: "Yeah. He's nerfed. Deal with it."

 

[Nifft]

Funny. When 4e first came out the typical response to complaints about the Wizard being nerfed was: "Dude. The wizard is still very powerful! Check out this and this power, combined with this with an implement and Int Mod of +4, the wizard is so freaking deadly." Now it's: "Yeah. He's nerfed. Deal with it."

Both are true.

Low-level Wizards are no longer limited to a handful (or even just a finger-full) of spells per day, and low-level Wizards can compete with Fighters for raw damage output.

On the other hand, mid-to-high level Fighters can now compete with Wizards for damage output and battlefield control.

"Balance giveth, and balance taketh away", -- N

 

[ExploderWizard]

That is a villains quote you realize ;p

The archer ranger is robinhood and william tell doing things that are astonishing. The paladin murmurs over his blade and flares to light with power streaming in from the astral sea. Poets priests and politicians inspire the heroic to push beyond all natural limits. Warriors tap in to heroic luck that seems unending. Barbarians channel spirits and the might of the earth goddess into awesome rages(check out ancient celt barbarians).
The wizards powers still sweep the chaff before him ... but the chaff no longer seems to include his peers... is that bad?

Not bad really but it does change the vibe to a more supers-team feel than a sword and sorcery adventuring party. Everyone in the party being equal is a noble goal but there are certain traditional D&D'isms that added a lot of fun moments.

Targeting casters first to eliminate the danger. Turn based initiative makes acting as a cohesive team for coordinated nuking more difficult unless everyone delays to the lowest initiative count in the party. That combined with the knowledge that an enemy caster just really isn't more dangerous than anyone else and is not such a high priority make this classic staple pointless.

The excitement of not knowing if you will get that big spell off before its disrupted. Once again turn taking predictability kills the sizzle. Heck, even being grabbed and held won't prevent you from casting.

Spells just don't seem like spells these days. They are more like a targeted bzzzzt with spell tacked on as a label.

 

[Obryn]

Funny. When 4e first came out the typical response to complaints about the Wizard being nerfed was: "Dude. The wizard is still very powerful! Check out this and this power, combined with this with an implement and Int Mod of +4, the wizard is so freaking deadly." Now it's: "Yeah. He's nerfed. Deal with it."

That's different from how I remember it. IIRC, there was a lot of joy over the Wizard not being able to step on other classes' toes so much. And then there was much wailing & gnashing of teeth when a lot of folks decided it was the weakest class in 4e, IMO without much justification.

Yes, the Wizard in 4e is less powerful and flexible than the Wizard in 3e, while still being able to do wizardy things for longer. Yes, I think this is a good thing. Yes, the Wizard is nevertheless still very powerful in 4e, and has both decent at-wills and incredibly good Daily powers. And yes, if a Wizard player pays attention to their Rituals, they might still get some of that old-fashioned out-of-combat magic feeling.

-O

 

[Nifft]

That's different from how I remember it. IIRC, there was a lot of joy over the Wizard not being able to step on other classes' toes so much. And then there was much wailing & gnashing of teeth when a lot of folks decided it was the weakest class in 4e, IMO without much justification.

After playing a pregen 4e Wizard in KotS, I will affirm that there was some justification.

In my case it's pregen bias: the Fighter was fairly well done (got some feats tweaked & picked up a shield), the Rogue was very well done (pretty much unchanged), but the Wizard got a total makeover once we finally got our hands on a PHB.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Herremann the Wise]

That is a villains quote you realize ;p

The archer ranger is robinhood and william tell doing things that are astonishing. The paladin murmurs over his blade and flares to light with power streaming in from the astral sea. Poets priests and politicians inspire the heroic to push beyond all natural limits. Warriors tap in to heroic luck that seems unending. Barbarians channel spirits and the might of the earth goddess into awesome rages(check out ancient celt barbarians).

And rightly so!... although I'm still not jiving with all of this at 1st level. Count me a sucker for the occasional peasant to hero thing.

The wizards powers still sweep the chaff before him ... but the chaff no longer seems to include his peers...

or the real enemies, just the pretend ones (minions).

is that bad?

No it's not bad, it's just unfortunate for certain players. It's a mind shift going from the versatile and somewhat dangerous Wizard to the crowd control guy who's had his niche [rituals] taken away from him. For all the little guys out there who have had their trapfinding, melee-badass, sneaking shoes trodden upon by the ALL-MIGHTY WIZARD TM, it is a victory sweet that you are all still rejoicing in. Meh... Wizards were nerfed, all colour removed from their Excellent Prismatic Sprays and we'll all deal with it in our own way.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

PS Garthanos: clicked on your link and found some good stuff. Well done!

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Spells are easy to use in 3.x
Spells are fire-and-forget.
Spells do work reliably.

What exactly is your quibble with the word "button"?

They were not the circumstances or context I was talking about. I was referring to very situational occasions where a simple spell could have surprisingly inventive usefulness, not a simple I-win-button to be mindlessly mashed. Perhaps I should give you a simple example from our game:

Social Event and Banquet but we needed to talk to the Prince immediately without his back-stabbing fiance next to him to hear the conversation (and thus inform the cult she was working for). We needed to spirit him out of there without causing a fuss. We tried one or two things to talk directly to the prince but nothing would seem to work within the faux "politeness" of the banquet. Then at the toast, everyone cheers raises their glasses including the fiance but a grease spell makes her dump the red wine all over her dress. She quickly excuses herself, runs out in embarassment (a few extra victory points and cheers for that!) and we get to talk to the Prince directly with recently acquired but irrefutable evidence against his Fiance. The province saved by a grease spell.

I'm not talking about cheesy recipes (as highlighted by another poster) but simple inventive opportunities; happenstances that only come around every so often. Could a diplomacy check have worked? Possibly but a little risky and time-consuming. Could an outright accusation have been made? Of course but with serious repercussions at getting at the cults head - they would have been forewarned. Grease spell? Perfect!!!

Right. A single action that defeats a whole encounter, which was intended to challenge the whole party.

Again you take what I was saying out of the context it was delivered. I was referring to a minor encounter that was a resource speed bump for the party - not a "challenge for the whole party".

4e didn't take away your ability to be imaginative.

No of course it didn't. It took away most of the interesting and imaginative tools that a wizard could use though.

It did take away your ability to win whole encounters with a single action.

Save or dies fine. Giving simple monsters so many hit points that numerous rounds of hit point erosion are required... not so fine.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Harlekin]

They were not the circumstances or context I was talking about. I was referring to very situational occasions where a simple spell could have surprisingly inventive usefulness, not a simple I-win-button to be mindlessly mashed. Perhaps I should give you a simple example from our game:

Social Event and Banquet but we needed to talk to the Prince immediately without his back-stabbing fiance next to him to hear the conversation (and thus inform the cult she was working for). We needed to spirit him out of there without causing a fuss. We tried one or two things to talk directly to the prince but nothing would seem to work within the faux "politeness" of the banquet. Then at the toast, everyone cheers raises their glasses including the fiance but a grease spell makes her dump the red wine all over her dress. She quickly excuses herself, runs out in embarassment (a few extra victory points and cheers for that!) and we get to talk to the Prince directly with recently acquired but irrefutable evidence against his Fiance. The province saved by a grease spell.

I'm not talking about cheesy recipes (as highlighted by another poster) but simple inventive opportunities; happenstances that only come around every so often. Could a diplomacy check have worked? Possibly but a little risky and time-consuming. Could an outright accusation have been made? Of course but with serious repercussions at getting at the cults head - they would have been forewarned. Grease spell? Perfect!!!

Sure that is a neat trick (Although the rules fiend in me wonders if the spell was stilled and silenced). This is exactly the reason that I like mage hand and prestidigation being at wills in 4th edition. After all, a 4th edition wizard would have gotten the same effect with mage hand.

As a side note: A really large number of these stories seem to be based on the application of the Grease spell. Is that because there are only a few spells in 3.5 that are really that flexible?