Wizards in 4E have been 'neutered' argument...

[Majoru Oakheart]

What, for a 12th level party? Let's imagine the party consists of a wizard, a sorcerer, a fighter, and a monk. As soon as the party figures out what's happening, the wizard casts repulsion. The fighter and rogue ready an action to shift 5 feet as soon as they are attacked, while the sorcerer readies a magic missile to blast anything that makes it past the repulsion. On the next round, the sorcerer readies a wall of force, trapping the next opponent as it tries to spring away. The wizard blasts the opponent with magic missile while the the fighter and monk now whale on the trapped opponent using their ghost touch weapons.

I can only say what happened when the two 12th level groups I saw went through that encounter(one where I was the cleric). I can say that no one had prepared repulsion...and oddly enough I've never seen it cast at all. No one in either group prepared Wall of Force, Undeath to Death or owned Ghost Touch weapons. Besides, Wall of Force would have just made the monsters go through the ground to get around it. Replusion would have caused them to retreat into the darkness and wait the couple of rounds until they had to come back and attack us.

As for the shifting 5ft when they are attacked....well, there was very little room to move. Most of us had 3 allies, and 3 squares of brambles adjacent to us during any given round. Plus, I've never seen someone use the "ready a shift when I'm attack" action ever. It was brought up as a possible rules loophole in our group a while back. Virtually everyone in our group figured that if you could either spend your standard action on full defense in order to up your defense by a small amount or you could use it to ready to make an attack miss entirely that the "ready to shift" action wasn't really a balanced or intended use of the rules. I think someone tried it once and the DM simply said "Your shift happens before the attack, so he hasn't taken it yet. He continues moving towards you and then attacks. Now can we stop readying actions to do nothing?"

What did happen was that our Barbarian managed to lose 6 levels and 5 Con points in the surprise round of combat. With -6 to his attack rolls, he couldn't hit anything. Our Ranger couldn't get a full attack sequence off since he kept having to ready for when the enemies got within sight. With a 50% miss chance, he hurt them...but slowly. We had a Wizard, but he was using readying Magic Missiles when the enemies got within range. He didn't have enough of them prepared to actually beat them.

It ended up taking a Death Ward, a Restoration(I really wish I prepared a Greater Restoration that day) and a couple of Heal spells on the Barbarian in order to win the fight. He did the most damage on a single attack out of anyone in the party, so we kept him immune to the energy drain and kept him attacking. It was hard...very hard. Probably one of the hardest encounters I've ever had in 3.5e. And without my cleric in the group, it would have been over very quickly.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

If I had built a construct-heavy dungeon, I'd have also put in a variety of other automated defenses (traps and the like) and ways to deactivate or get around the defenses (used by the original builders) that can be exploited even if characters can't bring their full powers to bear on the monsters.

You would. But I can tell you that not everyone does. Using Living Greyhawk as an example again. There was once a series of adventures that were designed to play in order. 4 adventures in a row, all of which had nothing but constructs, undead, and oozes as enemies. Because the theme of the adventures all involved going into ancient tombs from hundreds of years ago.

During said time there were about 2 traps. Both of which had non-rogue ways of disabling them since the authors didn't know whether there'd be a rogue in the group or not. In fact, both were presented as puzzles that if you couldn't figure out or didn't want to figure out, you could just disable instead.

After that series of adventures, our Rogue actually rolled up a new character since he was tired of being useless.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

How does adding the ability to fly or turn invisible remove a non-magical capability (any more than there's a trade-off in choosing to practice one mundane art instead of another)?

It doesn't remove it so much as make it useless.

"I can hide really well. I'm a sneaky rogue. My concept is I sneak through the darkness unseen and unheard and stab people when they can't see me for lots of damage. My special ability is that I'm way more stealthy than a normal person."

vs

"I can turn invisible and be completely silent with no chance of being seen or heard at all. So I'm better at steath than you are. Here, I'll cast a spell to make us ALL invisible so we don't have to wait out here for you to sneak ahead. Also, I do as much damage as you do when I'm completely visible."

AND

"My character is one of the best climbers in the world. I am known for the fact that I once scaled the largest mountain in the world with my bare hands. People use my name as a blessing when climbing."

VS

"I can fly. Who needs to climb? Here, I'll carry you just in case you might fall."

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

It's true that some classes of monsters are harder for some classes than others. But I'm OK with that. The flavor determines mechanics. I actually don't like flavor and mechanics to be too dissociated and 4e pushes too far in that direction for me in a number of ways.

Stipulated. That's a valid criticism.

For me, that feels like a feature, rather than a bug. Rub off the flavor text and just re-purpose the mechanics with entirely new flavor text.

If I had built a construct-heavy dungeon, I'd have also put in a variety of other automated defenses (traps and the like) and ways to deactivate or get around the defenses (used by the original builders) that can be exploited even if characters can't bring their full powers to bear on the monsters.

And that wouldn't just be good design, IME. That would be excellent design. I think ENWorld regulars (as opposed to guys like me who visit every couple years when I'm actually in a game or looking for one) are used to a high level of DM and design skill. I do not think this is standard out in the real world

The rules should be designed (IMO) to account for the run of the mill idiots or people who don't have time to do lots of tweaking that I tend to be and run with. In my limited experience thus far, 4e is more idiot proof, especially for the DM who's barely finding time to get a session prepared every couple weeks when he's running things out of books, much less rewriting or writing from scratch.

 

[pawsplay]

I can only say what happened when the two 12th level groups I saw went through that encounter(one where I was the cleric). I can say that no one had prepared repulsion...and oddly enough I've never seen it cast at all. No one in either group prepared Wall of Force, Undeath to Death or owned Ghost Touch weapons.

I hardly know what to say. No wall of force?

Besides, Wall of Force would have just made the monsters go through the ground to get around it. Replusion would have caused them to retreat into the darkness and wait the couple of rounds until they had to come back and attack us.

Maybe I'm missing something, but why didn't the party just run straight through?

Plus, I've never seen someone use the "ready a shift when I'm attack" action ever. It was brought up as a possible rules loophole in our group a while back. Virtually everyone in our group figured that if you could either spend your standard action on full defense in order to up your defense by a small amount or you could use it to ready to make an attack miss entirely that the "ready to shift" action wasn't really a balanced or intended use of the rules. I think someone tried it once and the DM simply said "Your shift happens before the attack, so he hasn't taken it yet. He continues moving towards you and then attacks. Now can we stop readying actions to do nothing?"

I would hope the DM wouldn't say something like that, because it contradicts the rules. You can't move before and after an attack (unless you have spring Attack) and by definition the attack occured or you wouldn't have used your readied action. It is no different than making an AoO or using a counterspell. Would the DM say your counterspell is ineffective because the spell "hasn't happened yet?"

What did happen was that our Barbarian managed to lose 6 levels and 5 Con points in the surprise round of combat. With -6 to his attack rolls, he couldn't hit anything. Our Ranger couldn't get a full attack sequence off since he kept having to ready for when the enemies got within sight. With a 50% miss chance, he hurt them...but slowly. We had a Wizard, but he was using readying Magic Missiles when the enemies got within range. He didn't have enough of them prepared to actually beat them.

It ended up taking a Death Ward, a Restoration(I really wish I prepared a Greater Restoration that day) and a couple of Heal spells on the Barbarian in order to win the fight. He did the most damage on a single attack out of anyone in the party, so we kept him immune to the energy drain and kept him attacking. It was hard...very hard. Probably one of the hardest encounters I've ever had in 3.5e. And without my cleric in the group, it would have been over very quickly.

At party level +3, yes, it's going to be a hard fight, but I don't think you've made your case that the cleric saved you. With another wizard in the party instead of a a cleric, maybe you would have had some more magic missiles and a wall of force... if you ready a wall of force, you can use it to block just about any attack, from dragon breath to a spectre's touch. Maybe if there were another barbarian in the party, he might have had a ghost touch weapon as a backup.

I have rarely seen a cleric take a special role against undead in my games, except for the occasional death ward. Empowered magic missile is a popular spell.

 

[Engilbrand]

In other words, pawsplay, you're saying that a second Wizard could have been better. I'm pretty sure that the true point here is that the spellcasting classes were always automatically better. That's why 4e stepped away from that.
If Wizards were "neutered", it's only because they used to be the equivalent of the god Priapus. They needed to be "cut down to size".

 

[Voadam]

I hardly know what to say. No wall of force?

My 15th level caster wizard does not know wall of force or repulsion either. He has web and wall of ice and even illusory wall for terrain control effects but no wall of force.

We faced a single hit and run dreadwraith once a number of levels ago (I know I was high enough level to use disintegrate even with two non caster levels). It nearly tore apart our party even with our good tactics. We flew up into a vast cavern so it couldn't sneak up at us through the walls or floor (everybody had winged boots or flying spells). The other arcane caster (arcane trickster) used readied magic missiles while I used Thunderlance (from Forgotten Realms CS I believe) with readied attacks, the paladin used his magic sword with many wiffs and the fighter/cleric used a ghost touch dagger. It was a near thing with the trickster almost turning undead from drains before we killed it.

 

[pawsplay]

In other words, pawsplay, you're saying that a second Wizard could have been better.

Or a second barbarian, actually.

Maybe if there were another barbarian in the party, he might have had a ghost touch weapon as a backup.

I don't want to second guess the party, but it sounds like everyone could have contributed a bit more, and you would hope someone would. "I am the rogue, I do not deal with undead," is in my mind equivalent to, "I am delusional as to the nature of D&D." If I play a barbarian who basically does melee and nothing else, I ought to at least have a few backup weapons to help me deal with the unexpected. If you're a 12th level character and you're not ready to deal with medusa archers, vampire monks, dragons, spectres, and orc barbarians, you're just not ready.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

I don't want to second guess the party, but it sounds like everyone could have contributed a bit more, and you would hope someone would. "I am the rogue, I do not deal with undead," is in my mind equivalent to, "I am delusional as to the nature of D&D." If I play a barbarian who basically does melee and nothing else, I ought to at least have a few backup weapons to help me deal with the unexpected. If you're a 12th level character and you're not ready to deal with medusa archers, vampire monks, dragons, spectres, and orc barbarians, you're just not ready.

Or maybe, just maybe, there's a point where the D&Disms start to get in the way of fun for a lot of people rather than improving the fun.

For example, you are espousing golf bag syndrome here. When was that EVER fun?

 

[billd91]

For example, you are espousing golf bag syndrome here. When was that EVER fun?

I've always had PCs carry around multiple weapons, even back in the days of 1e. Different tools for different applications. If I wasn't carrying around something sharp, something blunt, and something ranged, I wasn't well-equipped.