Wizards in a rough patch?

ColonelHardisson said:
Anyway, I guess I could see that some of what they've done is innovative - for D&D itself. Plus, don't get me wrong - I love a lot of what they've done. It's just that a lot of it doesn't seem new in the realm of RPGs in general.

It is very, very rare for any game company to make more than one or two major innovations which seems to be what you are looking for. They are normally at the heart of the game system, and everything else builds off that.

I'm not really wanting Wizards to innovate away from D&D!

Wizards are doing a very good job (IMO) at providing new takes on the existing mechanics. Tactical feats, substitution levels, incarnum(!), warforged, weapons of legacy, and so forth.
 

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I love the "Complete" books, and I'm really looking forward to Heroes of Horror. But other than that, nothing's coming up that I need. Wizards should go back to what made 2e so cool: fabulous settings.
 

MerricB said:
I'm not really wanting Wizards to innovate away from D&D!
Me neither! All the new choices are great stuff. We're especially loving the Scout class from Complete Adventurer. Our ranger2/rogue3 player converted her PC over to a Scout 5, and was really pleased with the results. It's a class you can actually be happy sticking with for 20 levels :)
 

Turjan said:
Not to highjack the thread, but can you compare it to the legacy weapons advancement rules in "Artifacts of the Ages"?

The Scion classes of Artifacts of the Ages also appear in Unearthed Arcana.

Artifacts of the Ages
Basically, there are Scion classes that correspond to the four main archetypes: Fighter/Sword Scion, Wizard/Spell Scion, etc. Each of the classes advances the core abilities of the corresponding archetype, but is a Prestige Class attuned to one item (weapons only in Unearthed Arcana, but The Game Mechanics, where these originated, have also done Rings and Staves, I believe). The requirements of the PrC are based on the background of the item; anyone not of the PrC using the item sees it as just a "basic magic item". As the character advances in the PrC, s/he gains more abilities from the item (sometimes 1 per level, but it varies by the power and the item).
Like other PrCs, the requirements are mostly phrased in terms of needing a certain BAB, or Race, etc.

Weapons of Legacy
Each item has three grades of powers, which must be "unlocked" in order from Least to Lesser to Greater. At each grade, a character who performs a certain task that emulates the legendary event that the item is known for is then able to sink a chunk of money into performing the ritual that links himself/herself to the item, which grants, in turn, the Least, Lesser, and Greater Legacy feats for that item as bonus feats. A linked character (i.e., one who has the bonus feat(s)) is able to harness additional abilties, based on character level. Least bestow abilities at character levels 6-10, Lesser at 11-15, and Greater at 16-20. However, as the abilties are gained, at some levels there are also "personal costs" to be paid: hit points, skill points, and/or BAB in some combination.

Artifacts of the Ages
Access: Prestige-class based
# of benefits: around 10, 1/level of the 10-level Prestige Classes
Costs: As with any PrC, the lack of advancement in some class abilities, sometimes the occasional need to make specific skill and feat choices, sometimes the need to be the correct race, and sometimes the need for specific class abilities.
Other:
Pro: The PrC mechanic is a familiar one to most DMs, and they have a good sense of how to judge whether this PrC and weapon will be a problem in the campaign.
Con: Adding this option late in the campaign means that new characters have more opportunity to take advantage of it than older ones. Existing characters are limited to gaining only as many new powers as the campaign has "levels to go".

Weapons of Legacy
Access: New mechanic, sort-of feat based
# of benefits: around 15 (your character level -5)
Costs: Monetary and "semi-permanent" penalties in the form of BAB, Skill, and/or Hit Point costs
Other:
Pro: Adding to existing campaigns is easier; more levels to spread powers over. Powers are retroactive - characters of equal level get the same "bang for the buck" whether they have had their Legacy Item for 2 levels or 10, so power levels are more consistent.
Con: The "gaining" of penalties as you continue to use the item seems counter-intuitive.

Both systems share a need for the DM to spend time detailing the item and the powers it bestows, as well as the pace at which they are achieved.
 

To return to the point of the thread, though, as has been said, I think Wizards has covered the "core" expansions and is now branching out into more "niche" areas. As a result, it will be harder to make products that appeal to as large a share of the audience.

The Fantastic locations will appeal to people who want to blend the minis game with D&D, or who want to use their D&D minis in their D&D games. People who dislike the D&D minis will (probably) not like these products as much, and will be less interested in them.

Books like Weapons of Legacy, Magic of Incarnum, and Tome of Magic will appeal more to some people than others. Likewise, the Genre series will be hit-or-miss with various folks.

While I am not sure I like the ideas in Magic of Incarnum, I am glad to see Wizards trying new things in a modular, use-it-or-not fashion. I am much more interested in the forthcoming Tome of Magic; I have already put into my homebrew a small version of Truenames, and I am curious to see what has been done with that. Likewise, my homebrew had a type of Shadow Magic in 2nd ed, and I am curious to see what Ari has done with that idea, too.
 

I haven't bought a WOTC book since Complete Warrior, and I regret that purchase. It seems like they are rehashing stuff that's been done before. If I wanted that, I'd just buy Hackmaster stuff.
 

tetsujin28 said:
I love the "Complete" books, and I'm really looking forward to Heroes of Horror. But other than that, nothing's coming up that I need. Wizards should go back to what made 2e so cool: fabulous settings.
Yeah. If the rumors are true (and WotC is going back to publishing adventures) then that'll be a good thing, but--settings. Yeah.
 

Silveras said:
Both systems share a need for the DM to spend time detailing the item and the powers it bestows, as well as the pace at which they are achieved.
Thank you very much for the detailed and very informative breakdown :). I've got the "Swords and Staves" book (and also UA), therefore I know the "Artifacts" method. The prestige class method nails the character pretty much down to the item for 10 levels, which is balanced but not especially elegant. But paying hitpoint or BAB costs for an item used by a fighter seems a bit odd to me.
 

MerricB said:
It is very, very rare for any game company to make more than one or two major innovations which seems to be what you are looking for. They are normally at the heart of the game system, and everything else builds off that.

I'm not really wanting Wizards to innovate away from D&D!

Wizards are doing a very good job (IMO) at providing new takes on the existing mechanics. Tactical feats, substitution levels, incarnum(!), warforged, weapons of legacy, and so forth.

First, I don't want them to innovate away from D&D either. I hope I didn't give that impression. Innovation does not necessarily imply game mechanic stuff alone, either - I'd like to see WotC do stuff as original as, say, Fiery Dragon's Battlebox, or HackMaster's GM Shield. Still, it would be good to see them try something different rules-wise, along the lines of Iron Heroes, or the Black Company. I know it's ironic to say "try to be original like these other guys," but what I'm suggesting is for them to think outside the box more often. It seems that when they do, they do well (again, the Warlock is a great example, in my opinion).
 

Turjan said:
Thank you very much for the detailed and very informative breakdown :). I've got the "Swords and Staves" book (and also UA), therefore I know the "Artifacts" method. The prestige class method nails the character pretty much down to the item for 10 levels, which is balanced but not especially elegant. But paying hitpoint or BAB costs for an item used by a fighter seems a bit odd to me.

Please note: you don't pay Base Attack costs! You take a penalty on attacks!

There's a *big* difference when it comes to iterative attacks.

Cheers!
 

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