Wizards killing products?

[Graf]

There is no publisher that can even come close to touching WotC for production values. None. Period. Seriously, is this a loaded question?

No. Though I appreciate that it could be taken as an unfair way to remove otherwise excellent products. A lot of people post saying that non-WotC books are just as good in all ways. I wanted to dig at this.
Why am I focused on this? see the next post

And I would ask if you've seen the Iron Kingdoms books? I've only purchased one but I used the art from it extensively in my games (to the point of using it for pictures for different monsters from other books).

Now, if you take out production values (which I take to mean great color art and full color),

I didn't. I know this isn't an either/or thing but when I get the time I pick up Manga (Japanese comics, which have shading but no colors per se) and I find the art to be extremely evocative.

OK. So the products people have listed as being good without the qualifiers (i.e. my favorite /the best non-WotC etc etc) are listed below. (Sorry if I missed something let me know and I'll add it in).


Setting stuff is -NOT- here as a claim that the world is super or awesome. The idea is that the ideas, writing, production and rules are top notch. Nothing more, nothing less.

Finally non-DnD books (Arcana Evolved, etc.) are not what I'm talking about. Maybe somebody wants to talk about whether the two game systems are better or worse or neater or cooler but I'm not that person.

I've also ignored pimping posts. I understand wanting to sell more of your own books but non-biased parties are generally the best.
Finally I feel compelled to not list books in posts where the person has said they don't care about appearance.


Settings
Dragonlance
Full Metal Fantasy 1 & 2
World of Warcraft

Non-Monster books
Frost and Fur
Arms & Armor 3.5
Fields of Blood
Book of Erotic Fantasy (as a value neutral ruleset)
Redhurst, Academy of Magic
Monsternomican
Chaositech
Book of Templates
Shackled City Adventure Path
Spells & Magic
Beyond Monks 3.5
Hammer & Helm

Monster books (seperate catagory since they're mostly what people are mentioning)
Denizens of Avadnu (Inner Circle Press) (mentioned by two or three people)
Tome of Horrors II (mentioned by two or three people)
Creature Collection 3
Book of Fiends

I'm also going to come out and say it but either at least some people's expectations are lower for non-wotc products (or their estimation of the quality of WotC's work is significantly lower than mine).

I'm going to pick a specific example of something I worked on(the only thing I've ever had published in case you're wondering if I'm grinding some kind of professional ax).

I created a monster for the CCIII (through their fan submission thing). Now I'm sure the monster had problems that required rectifying; SS, apparently felt that it needed to traditional style attack melee attack combo. The solution for the hired gun who re-wrote the monster (a lawful outsider) was to give it lots of monk powers (it had six arms, having lots of open handed strikes was a cool image maybe). But it has six hands because it has six magic soul eating lanterns that it carries in them.
So the flavor text reads that its always carrying six lanterns but the combat stat block suggests it has lots of open handed attacks.
When you're trying to use a monster and you have to either say "despite what the stat block says it attacks with the lanterns but they function like unarmed monk strikes" or else "the lanterns go -some-where else when its fighting" (which would be fine but since it's major attack is stealing the souls of people being able to attack and disarm the lanterns is a big deal).
Now if that were the only issue that might be OK (monster books are hard to discuss) but I felt like the other work on the book was done at a similar level.

So no... frankly I think CCIII was a great 3rd party book, but I don't think it was as good as the Monster Manual in the sense that a lot of stuff required the DM too work through it and change things to make them fit.

(I"m not saying that its anyone' fault. I should probably have made the monster a traditionally claw/claw/bite kinda thing. SS could have spent more time rectifying my mistakes, etc. All I'm saying is that the BOOK is not as good as the MM in terms of following the rules and being useful to the DM without editing. And a fair chunk of the art wasn't at the same level as WotC.)

 

[Graf]

I don't mind his work; certainly, he's one of the better artists WotC uses.

But really, the work I've seen in a lot of the third party products is so far above and beyond what WotC does. Yes, there's plenty of junk art in third party products. But the best pieces in third party art are far superior to WotC's best artwork. For being such a big company, their art has been a real disappointment to me. I would've thought that they could afford better.

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

A generic post saying WotC's books aren't as good as most other 3rd party books in terms of art. Which ones?
If they are on the list already then great, if not, and you feel that way, you should stick up for them (the books, the people who labored over them) and post the names.

You may have a different preference in art than other people but I bet there are probably people out there with a similar sensibility who would beneft from finding out about them.

Suck it up and give us some names.

 

[Turjan]

I just want to comment on this "production value" point ("great color art and full color"), I don't think that colour art is necessarily better than black & white one. Just think of the old Bastion Press books, full colour and glossy paper: The style and colours of borders and interior images often clashed with each other. I have "Minions: Rebirth" (a good 'general' monster book), and I can tell you that the colour figures actually gain if you print them in black & white. Despite the art, which isn't even that bad in this case, here is another vote for 'Spells & Magic' .

Great b&w art can be found in 'Hammer & Helm' (gorgeous dwarf drawings), 'Wrath & Rage' (some of the funniest RPG art ever) or in some of FFG's 'Legends & Lairs' series, like 'Wildscape' (one of the best environmental books, btw.), though it's not consistent in those books. 'Legacy of the Dragons' is also not bad. I might have a different taste in art from many, but I don't think that the change of art found from AU to AE was necessarily for the better. I found some of those pieces from AU with a xylographic appearance very evocative, e.g. the illustration of the 'Venomblade' spell by David Hendee on pg. 246.

 

[Turjan]

Just to address the original topic, here a list of generic d20 books I think are a good addition to a GM's library:

Class Books:

• The Shaman's Handbook (simply a great book)
• The Witch's Handbook (not quite as good as the former, but still...)
• Shamans - Call of the Wild (tough call on the Green Ronin one)
• Chaos Magic - Wild Sorcery (not all suited for PC's, but very flavourful, nevertheless)
• The Quintessential Wizard (well, a class book as you want to have it)
• The Quintessential Sorcerer (ditto)
• Masters of Arms (makes the Fighter much more interesting )
• Experts (good NPC book, but butt ugly )

Race Books:

• Hammer & Helm (good Dwarf book)
• Wrath & Rage (more about Orcs, this means it's something for GMs)
• Bow & Blade (great ideas for (wood) elves)

Monster Books:

• Legions of Hells (if you like outsiders...)
• Liber Bestarius (nice generic monster book with lots of interwoven backgrounds)
• Denizens of Avadnu (well, what can I say, one of the most inspired works available )
• Advanced Bestiary (if you like a monster toolbox)
• Monsters of the Endless Dark, etc. (look a bit amateurish, but the books of the series have their unique charm )
• Legacy of the Dragons (written for AU, but generic enough to use it everywhere)

Magic and stuff:

• The Complete Book of Eldritch Might (not only magic, but classes, locations and plot hooks galore)
• Spells & Magic (one of the best 'alternate magic systems' books around)
• Forged in Magic (a nice magic item collection)
• Constructs - It's Alive (it's a bit outdated, but it was very good for its time)
• The Artificer's Handbook (an alternate magic item production system for plug-in into standard D&D)
• Arms & Armor 3.5 (the only equipment book you ever need)

Alternate rules:

• Dynasties & Demagogues (rules systems for the political campaign)
• Crime & Punishment (time for thumbscrews for your PCs)
• Fields of Blood (a domain management and war system for standard D&D)
• Airships (conquer your fantasy skies)
• Book of the Righteous (alternate pantheon, churches, classes)
• Tournaments, Fairs & Taverns (games within your game )

Locations and Plot Hooks:

• AEG Toolbox (well, lots of errors in the stat blocks, but useful for non-pedants, nevertheless)
• Wildscape (your allround environmental supplement)
• Portals & Planes (build your own multiverse)
• The Book of Taverns (if you ever thought taverns were boring, look here)
• Requiem for a God (weed your pantheon out )
• When the Sky Falls (this is not about D&D 4.0 )
• Seven Strongholds/Seven Cities (locations)
• Touched by the Gods/Arcana - Societies of Magic (plug-in enemies and allies, but also new magic item rules etc.; this is mostly the role of Dragon magazine, though)

That's enough for the moment, I think. I did not consider "production values", btw. These books don't "kill" WotC books most of the time, but often they have at least as good alternatives, sometimes better rules and other times deal with topics that are not dealt with in WotC publications at all.

I didn't include any products that I only have as pdf's so far. Maybe later .

 

[Wolf72]

*will now go to defend ToH* Why? Because if you compare both BoVD and Fiend Folio to what's in ToH, nearly HALF the book contains material from both. Which is why I consider ToH FAR superior to Fiend Folio, especially where it ripped stuff off from ToH.

to be fair it was WotC's to 'rip-off' ... but it is really annoying that wizards spends money on having people come up with new versions of monsters that have already been updated (and updated well).

I like the ToH, mostly because of the plethora of updated monsters, which is what it was kinda meant to do.

that being said, I haven't bought any other monster books (besides the Bestiary of Krynn) since the ToH.

 

[Nightfall]

*won't comment on the fact Clark was told beforehand "No we aren't updating any of these monsters." and then out came Fiend Folio. *

Graf, I ALWAYS have low expectations of production when it comes to WotC. Why. Here's a few reasons: Hero Builder's Guidebook, Arms and Equipment Guide, Books of Good Two Shoeness and Dark horrible things. (BoVD and BoED). Trust me, unless Wayne Reynolds does a lot of the art work, or they get Sam Wood, Klaus, and Kieran Yanner, I'm rarely interested in looking at it. Same goes for Cartography, since I've biased for Skeleton Key man, Bournelle(sp).

 

[JoeGKushner]

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

A generic post saying WotC's books aren't as good as most other 3rd party books in terms of art. Which ones?
If they are on the list already then great, if not, and you feel that way, you should stick up for them (the books, the people who labored over them) and post the names.

You may have a different preference in art than other people but I bet there are probably people out there with a similar sensibility who would beneft from finding out about them.

Suck it up and give us some names.

In terms of art, Red Spire Press's Dark Legacies Player's Guide, is fully done by Adrian Smith, one of the best artists in the industry in my opinion. A setting guide in the main vein of d20, but with lots of options that lower the magical crunch and utility of magic.

 

[Grazzt]

Tome of horrors being the best monster book out there? Man, I'm glad I don't buy many monster books, because if the adherer, bonesucker, crabman, death dog, executioner's hood, flail snail, gorilla bear, jack-o-lantern, lava children, mustard jelly, nilbog, ogrillon, piercer, stench kow, volt, and wolf-in-sheep's-clothing are the best monsters around, I don't want to see the worst ones.

I was so disappointed in Tome of Horrors. There are lots and lots of cool monsters from the earlier editions, and they waste space on wolf-in-sheep's-clothing?

Blame me. I wasted space on the Wolf-in-Sheep's-Clothing. Always liked and used that monster.

 

[MerricB]

I think my problems with the Tome of Horrors can be summed up with the conversion of the Groaning Spirit.

CR 7. Wail of the Banshee (Will DC 17, all die within 30').

3e rules (sort of), 1e instant death.

I love a lot of Tome of Horrors, and I don't regret buying it at all. However, I think it belongs to the early 3e era where the rules were understood, but their (full) implications were not. I'd love to see what Scott (and the others) would make of the monsters today if he approached them again.

Cheers!

 

[Kanegrundar]

Isn't there a 3.5 update of the ToH on the horizon?

Kane