Wizards killing products?

[JoeGKushner]

Isn't there a 3.5 update of the ToH on the horizon?

Kane

Many of the monsters have been updated in Glades of Death and other print books. No updated print of ToH is on the horizon but there is supposed to be a PDF update of ToH utilizing the new art found in the various reprints of the series which thankfully kicks up the art value a bit.

 

[Kanegrundar]

Many of the monsters have been updated in Glades of Death and other print books. No updated print of ToH is on the horizon but there is supposed to be a PDF update of ToH utilizing the new art found in the various reprints of the series which thankfully kicks up the art value a bit.

I knew I heard something along those lines. Thanks for refreshing my memory, Joe. Any idea on when this is going to be released?

Kane

 

[JoeGKushner]

I knew I heard something along those lines. Thanks for refreshing my memory, Joe. Any idea on when this is going to be released?

Kane

AFAIC, it's vaporware until it goes on sale. Like I've noted, much of it has been reprinted already and print products keep pushing the supposed release date back. It just doesn't seem to be high priority and with Grimtooth's Traps, Wilderlands and other high priority projects on their scope, I can't say I blame them.

 

[Kanegrundar]

AFAIC, it's vaporware until it goes on sale. Like I've noted, much of it has been reprinted already and print products keep pushing the supposed release date back. It just doesn't seem to be high priority and with Grimtooth's Traps, Wilderlands and other high priority projects on their scope, I can't say I blame them.

True that. It would be nice to have without tracking down all the other products that contains the updated stats. I've been using the ToH in my 3.5 games, so it's not a probelm to update monster myself, but that pdf would be nice. Oh well, I'll keep waiting and enjoying what I have already.

Kane

 

[talien]

Tome of Horrors II
Frost and Fur - I don't own Frostburn, but by looking at reviews, copies in stores, etc I definitely think F&F is better and was unlucky to be released at a similar time.

Aww, thanks.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

Sure.

The art for Monsters & Treasures. Heck, just about everything about the book beats the pants off the 3e Monster Manuals.

The deeply shaded art in many of Necromancer Games' products is pretty atmospheric. The covers they've been producing lately are really dynamite as well, like A Family Affair, the Wilderlands core books (Though I suppose it is unfair to cite those, what with those being Frazetta's work), Glades of Death, and so on.

Midnight's interior artwork was quite inspiring. At least, on the 1st edition. I haven't seen the 2nd.

Of course, there are exceptions. I think Kingdoms of Kalamar is a great setting, but the FR core book is far superior in terms of artistic presentation.

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

A generic post saying WotC's books aren't as good as most other 3rd party books in terms of art. Which ones?
If they are on the list already then great, if not, and you feel that way, you should stick up for them (the books, the people who labored over them) and post the names.

You may have a different preference in art than other people but I bet there are probably people out there with a similar sensibility who would beneft from finding out about them.

Suck it up and give us some names.

 

[Wombat]

Green Ronin's Products and Malhavoc's Products are rapidly shaping up to be premier offerings to rival WotC's stuff. From innovative rules, to excellent artwork, to inspiring topics, they're turning out some awesome stuff. Witness Mutants and Masterminds 2e and Arcana Evolved. Even though M&M2 is not out yet, if it follows in M&M1's footsteps, it will be a fantastic product.

Have to agree with Henry here. Whether it be the Mythic Vistas line and True 20 or Iron Heroes and Arcana Evolved, I think most people would have to agree that Malhavoc & Green Ronin put out books that are as sturdy as, as pretty as, and as useful as anything WotC has turned out; this is not to say that WotC has put out anything bad at all, but rather to praised the other two companies as worthy of being in the same category in all points. Plus I tend to prefer what these two companies are doing with rules and setting material over the stuff from WotC, though that is simply a matter of personal preferences. Still, in terms of sturdiness of binding, type & quality of art, editing (especially editing!), cost-to-size ratios, and pretty much any other way of measuring such volumes, Green Ronin and Malhavoc at least equal WotC.

 

[Pants]

The Tome of Horrors is a nice book, I'm glad I bought it, if only for the nostalgia (hell, even the art in the book hearkens back to the 1e style... which, IMO, is not good at all, but hey, its a style thing and I appreciate it). But best monster book? No, even if you count off WotC 'ripping them off' (it was their material in the first place). I'm glad I have both the Fiend Folio and the Tome of horrors. It doesn't hurt having two versions of the same monster.

Blame me. I wasted space on the Wolf-in-Sheep's-Clothing. Always liked and used that monster.

Someday, I'm going to use that monster. I've always liked it, even if it is a Gygaxian excuse for 'the tree attacks you and kills you! Haha, didn't expect that, did you?'

I think my problems with the Tome of Horrors can be summed up with the conversion of the Groaning Spirit.

CR 7. Wail of the Banshee (Will DC 17, all die within 30').

3e rules (sort of), 1e instant death.

I love a lot of Tome of Horrors, and I don't regret buying it at all. However, I think it belongs to the early 3e era where the rules were understood, but their (full) implications were not. I'd love to see what Scott (and the others) would make of the monsters today if he approached them again.

Cheers!

The Bodak in the MM has a Death Gaze, Range 30 ft., DC 15 instant Death. Granted the save DC is lower, but considering how dangerous gaze attacks are, its potentially as bad, if not worse than the Groaning Spirit's wail.

Still, in terms of sturdiness of binding, type & quality of art, editing (especially editing!), cost-to-size ratios, and pretty much any other way of measuring such volumes, Green Ronin and Malhavoc at least equal WotC.

Wait... hasn't Green Ronin had a few 'page XX' references?

 

[Staffan]

Some monsters I would have preferred seeing updated to 3e instead of most of the ones in Tome of Horrors:
All the aasimon, guardinals, eladrin, devils, demons, yugoloth and modrons (OK, you did a pretty good job adding devils and demons).
Living statues
Kank
Baazrag
Crodlu
Krag and Kragling
Ruvoka
Magen
Gray philosopher
Thoul
Clockwork Horrors
Neogi (which were admittedly converted in later WOTC stuff)
And a bunch of others from the MC appendices, especially the Mystara one (which I don't have here to check at the moment, unfortunately). By my reckoning, the MC appendixes were vastly better sources of monsters than the 1e monster books.

 

[MerricB]

The Bodak in the MM has a Death Gaze, Range 30 ft., DC 15 instant Death. Granted the save DC is lower, but considering how dangerous gaze attacks are, its potentially as bad, if not worse than the Groaning Spirit's wail.

Oh, I quite agree. At least it has a slightly higher CR (8). I've killed many a PC with a Bodak in 3e.

I get very concerned about death effects that are at too low a level.

Cheers!