Wizards killing products?

[Nightfall]

It may have been Wizards to use, but from what I recall, Clark was told "Nah we aren't going update these monsters". That to me, and I assume Clark as well, they weren't going to touch them ever again. Lo comes Fiend Folio.

*has only one version of Orcus thank you*

 

[Numion]

*has only one version of Orcus thank you*

Dungeon had already published one version of Orcus before WotC and ToH. I'm glad to have several versions, though. ToH super-tough version might be too hard for any campaign, and whats the use of monster you'll never use? (not a strictly rethorical question)

 

[Pants]

*has only one version of Orcus thank you*

I have 2 and they both suck.

If I'm going to use Orcus, I'm going to homebrew him for my campaign. At least I have 2 sources to draw ideas from.

 

[Psion]

Let me start with more recent acquisitions:

• Shackled City. It's a freaking adventure/campaign book, and it has a nicer city map than the non-existant one Sharn has. RttToEE also stands in the shadow of this book. As I have said elsewhere, Shackled City represents the sort of book that WotC should be putting out. It also easily equals or exceeds WotCs books in presentation.
• Spycraft 2.0 is not d20 fantasy support, but it's a great corebook, with great presentation, cheap. (Of course, I think they do this by piggybacking on the CCG artwork, but still, it fits the description.)
• World of Warcraft - Another huge, cheap, full color book, that takes advantage of d20 system innovations by other publishers, something WotC seems above doing.
• Arcana Evolved - Not so much cheap as some of the aforementioned, but great book for presentation and content.
• Book of the Righteous is similar to what DDG should have been.
• Tome of Horrors, Denizens of Avadnu, Creature Collections, Book of Fiends, etc. Yep, add me to the ToH bandwagon. While I am finally mining out a few useful ideas from MMII, III, and FF, I still feel as if they weren't hitting on all cylinders with their monster books. Further, FF has some real beauty in it, but I think lots of it got lost in the translation, which I attribute to internal politics or sneakiness (without proof, but statements by some involved tends to confirm my suspicions.)
• Gimme Portals & Planes, Book of the Planes, or DMs Directory of Demiplanes any day of the week over Planar Handbook when it comes to inspired planar material. (MotP is still a hallmark book, though.)
• Bow & Blade is a great elf book (I'd also brag up Hammer & Helm, which is good, but I actually think Races of Stone is a pretty decent book.)

 

[woodelf]

Not to pick on someone but I know Night can take it

So you're saying that ToH (I don't have the second one) is as well balanced and written for a standard DnD game as the MM (or MM2/Fiend Folio if you prefer)?

You feel that the art, layout and and so forth are at the same level?
(Was there a 3.5 version I missed?)

Hate to repeat but: I'm curious about the books that people feel are as-good-or-better-than-(good)-WotC books including things like art, production values and game balance.

• Fantasy Bestiary
• Spycraft
• Spycraft 2.0
• M&MM (both editions)
• Redhurst
• Arcana Unearthed [i actually think it looks considerably better than Arcana Evolved]
• Iron Heroes
• Primeval Groves

And that's just off the top of my head--most of the books i think are better than the WotC offerings, i nonetheless don't own, so i'm not immediatly thinking of them. Of the above list, i want to highlight a couple specific items. The original edition of Spycraft is, in every way, superior to D20 Modern, IMHO. It looks better, it's better put together, it has better rules, and it's better written and organized. I haven't had a chance to give it much look yet (i only just got it), but i suspect the same applies to v2.0--the material/art quality certainly do, and i think it wins on price-per-page now, too.

Likewise, i think that Arcana Unearthed is better than the D&D3E PH as a players' handbook for playing D&D than the D&D3E or D&D3.5E PHs, in every way: better layout, better binding, better cover art, better rules, better organization, better editing. And when i decidid i wanted to play a D&D game (specifically using Al Qadim), i pulled out AU, not the D&D3E PH.

If we're talking content only, the list gets a lot longer. Frex, Beyond Countless Doorways is head-and-shoulders above Manual of the Planes, IMHO, but it's not quite as pretty. I consider myself a pretty fussy consumer. Nothing from WotC has made the cut in 8 years, even at 50% off. Plenty of D20 System stuff has made the cut, however, so i obviously think that there is D20 System stuff that is better than anything WotC has published. And, in some cases, i think it's better in all ways, including production values. Some of this as as objective as matters of design get: the lines in the D&D3E PH really interfere with readability, the lower contrast of not having black-on-white pages hurts readability for some, tables are poorly offset, and some images are placed to cause text to wrap in a way that is hard to read. Some of this is purely subjective: i really dislike the art in most D&D3[.5]E book.

 

[Nightfall]

I have 2 and they both suck.

If I'm going to use Orcus, I'm going to homebrew him for my campaign. At least I have 2 sources to draw ideas from.

True but I find combinig the two works out even better.

Dungeon had already published one version of Orcus before WotC and ToH. I'm glad to have several versions, though. ToH super-tough version might be too hard for any campaign, and whats the use of monster you'll never use? (not a strictly rethorical question)

What's the use of a flumph? The point is I'd use Orcus in an epic campaign IF I thought killing was what the party needed.

Tome of Horrors, Denizens of Avadnu, Creature Collections, Book of Fiends, etc. Yep, add me to the ToH bandwagon. While I am finally mining out a few useful ideas from MMII, III, and FF, I still feel as if they weren't hitting on all cylinders with their monster books. Further, FF has some real beauty in it, but I think lots of it got lost in the translation, which I attribute to internal politics or sneakiness (without proof, but statements by some involved tends to confirm my suspicions.)

And mine too Psion. But there you are.

 

[Turjan]

• Fantasy Bestiary
• Arcana Unearthed [i actually think it looks considerably better than Arcana Evolved]
• Primeval Groves

If you just look at the point of ideas how to use a certain monster, then the Fantasy Bestiary definitely delivers something that most WotC books don't do.

I agree with your sentiment towards AU/AE. AU had the better cover image, a better cover layout and - that may be a matter of taste, but nevertheless - the better art (in average). Plus, it was really a Player's Handbook. AE has the better interior layout, though.

As far as as Primeval Groves is concerned, do you really think it's altogether better than most WotC books? I really like the book, and art and concept are top notch, but the book has 19 pages of corrected errata . Kudos to them for dealing with the errata, but it's not really an example for superior editing .

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I think my problems with the Tome of Horrors can be summed up with the conversion of the Groaning Spirit.

CR 7. Wail of the Banshee (Will DC 17, all die within 30').

3e rules (sort of), 1e instant death.

I love a lot of Tome of Horrors, and I don't regret buying it at all. However, I think it belongs to the early 3e era where the rules were understood, but their (full) implications were not. I'd love to see what Scott (and the others) would make of the monsters today if he approached them again.

Cheers!

Hmmm, with the absence of any real level draining in 3e, nothing really scares the pcs like save or die. I wish there were MORE of these, not less.

 

[Graf]

Ok. I tried.

I'm getting the impression that this thread isn't really going to stick to the point that I was interested in looking at. (Usually this happens when the thread topic is pedantic or boring so there you go).

Anyway, thanks to the folks who responded.

 

[Azgulor]

Book of the Righteous

Kingdoms of Kalamar Campaign Setting

Fields of Blood

Modern Player's Companion

Conan RPG - But the line of supplements would not have the consistent quality that Mongoose's currently has and would be sanitized to obtain the equivalent of a PG rating. (This is based on past experience with WotC lines.)

Monsternomicon

Iron Kingdoms