wizards vs. sorcerers

[The Sigil]

Curse you Sigil, and your speedy use of the SRD.

I do what I can.

--The Sigil

 

[Bonedagger]

You are perfectly welcome to your opinion. I have played "slot" systems and "mana" systems. And IMO, "mana" systems or "spell point" systems are, not to put too fine a point on it, the singular WORST choice for magic systems.

Why?

They're WAY too easy to "twink." Even a non-twink rarely uses his 5 spell-point spells once he gets his 10 spell-point spells. He rarely uses his 10-spell-point spells once he gets his 15-spell-point spells, and so on.

IOW, the problem is not that the mage gets new tools - he should. The problem is that the mage is constantly casting his old tools aside, as it were, for new ones. You don't see mages with scads of spell points resorting to "low-cost" spells - because their "more expensive" spells are flat-out better and there's no reason to conserve spell points - you can just cast a ton of high-level spells. It tends to encourage overkill - the mage meteor swarms everything in sight, when a simple magic missile would be more than sufficient. Yes, I drive a car, but that doesn't mean I stop walking in some places. I hope my point is clear here, I seem to be rambling.

--The Sigil

That problem can easily be solved by adjusting the cost of the different spell levels (E.g. If a 1st level cost 4 points and a second level 6 points then make sure that a 3rd level would cost 11 points.)

Beside you said it yourself. Sometime a lowlevel spell could have done the job just as fine. With that in mind I would also mention that sometime a spellcaster are in danger of running out of mana. Your examples only reflect a "walk in the park situation".

 

[The Sigil]

That problem can easily be solved by adjusting the cost of the different spell levels (E.g. If a 1st level cost 4 points and a second level 6 points then make sure that a 3rd level would cost 11 points.)

Beside you said it yourself. Sometime a lowlevel spell could have done the job just as fine. With that in mind I would also mention that sometime a spellcaster are in danger of running out of mana. Your examples only reflect a "walk in the park situation".

The problem is that in my experience there's not a good way to scale things.

Let us take the easiest example... a 0-level spell costs 1 mana point. A 1st-level spell costs 3. A 2nd-level spell costs 7... 3rd level costs 15, 4th-level costs 31, etc. (IOW, a spell of level N+1 costs 2L+1 spell points, where L is the amount of spell points for level N spells).

This means a caster who is the equivalent of a first level wizard gets 6 spell points. Not bad - instead of 3/1 (3 cantrips, 1 1st level spell) he could go 6/0 or 0/2. Hardly unbalancing, right?
At second level he has 10 spell points, allowing 10/0, 7/1, 4/2, or 1/3. Still not too bad.
At third level it's still holding together at17 spell points. That's 2 2nd level spells plus 3 spell points or as many as 5 first level spells. Not too bad.
4th level - 27 spell points - do we really want a 4th-level character ripping off nine burning hands spells at 4d4 each?
5th level - 42 spell points - Now the character can fire off - let's see - a mere 14 burning hands spells at 5d4 each. That's... let's see... an average of 175 points of damage. The "traditional" wizard can throw 3 burning hands spells, 2 silent burning hands spells, and 1 fireball. 80 points of damage on average. Already, the wizard has seen his damage-dealing capacity double.

Essentially, the "spell-slot" system IS a spell point system - with some spell points "more equal than others". The problem is that there is no way to balance spell points - either spell points are linear with spell level - in which case you have the problem of trading in a few low-level spells for a high-level whallop - or spell points are geometrical with spell level - in which case you have trading in of a single high level spell for bucketloads of low-level spells, which winds up being even worse. How many "magic missiles" is a "meteor swarm" worth? How about "how many fireballs is a meteor swarm worth" and "how many magic missiles is a fireball worth?" You have to work really hard to make this come out right so that your formula to triple the spell level from 1 to 3 works out the same as tripling from 3 to 9. Alternatively, you have to find a formula that scales 1 to 3 (+2 levels) and also works for 3 to 5. And 2 to 4. And 4 to 6. And so on.

So long as you use spell slots, spells only need to be balanced "within the same level." It's all but impossible to balance spells across multiple levels, at least if (as D&D does) you keep caster level as the thing that scales damage.

The only system that I have seen that really satisfies me in this regard is GURPS - where you (basically) wind up paying mana points for damage. That's about the only way I can see such a system working, and the paperwork rapidly becomes icky.

If you can show me a system that doesn't run into these troubles, though, I am very anxious to see it - and maybe even adopt it!

--The Sigil

 

[Mortaneus]

If you can show me a system that doesn't run into these troubles, though, I am very anxious to see it - and maybe even adopt it!

--The Sigil

Again I say see Elements of Magic from Nat20. It takes the interesting route of having damage scale by the level of the spell, rather than the level of the caster.

 

[The Sigil]

Again I say see Elements of Magic from Nat20. It takes the interesting route of having damage scale by the level of the spell, rather than the level of the caster.

Bought it, haven't had a chance to read it yet (too busy pushing myself to finish writing the Enchiridion of Treasures and Objects D'art).

I will hold off on this line of discussion, then for another couple of weeks until I'm finished writing and can read EoM and can give a fair and reasoned review.

--The Sigil

 

[Bonedagger]

If you can show me a system that doesn't run into these troubles, though, I am very anxious to see it - and maybe even adopt it!

--The Sigil

I can remember Players Option giving it a try. Never had a chance to playtest it though.

Their spellcost was as following:

0 /1(0)
1st /4
2nd /6
3rd /10
4th /15
5th /22
6th /30
7th /40
8th /50
9th /60

But the real question in this case could then be if if being able to replace a 1st and 2nd level spell with a 3rd level is unbalancing. In the case where you would be able to replace one 9th for 10 2nd level it still limit you that casting 10 spells take a lot of time. Beside. The power of spells have a tendency to increase eksponetial [Edit: In this case casting time would be a big factor comparing a highlevel spell to many lowlevels for damage].

The Players Option had a max on how many spells you could memorize per level. (So it was still a memorize and forget system. )

Level/Max(Specialty)
1st/2(3)
2nd/2(3)
3rd/3(4)
4th/4(5)
5th/4(6)
6th/4(6)
7th/5(6)
etc.

That way there could be no mass-use of lowlevel spells.

However. I to also would like to hear more about Elements of Magics system.

 

[Mortaneus]

However. I to also would like to hear more about Elements of Magics system.

Hmm....let's see if I can explain this one...

Elements of magic tosses out the old ideas of individual spells...or more specifically, it takes the concepts behind the spells and stretches them out into whole lists that span spell levels 0-9.

Spellcasters, depending on their caster level, know so many individual 'lists'. Each spellcaster also has a certain number of Magic Points, based on caster level and casting stat. The cost structure for various levels of spells is the same as for Psi Powers.

For example, let's go with the Evoke Area [Element] list. Since it has a [...] designator in it, you have to pick what it is when you take the list (though you can take the same basic list more than once, for different elements).

In this case, let's say Evoke Area Fire, and you're a 10th level caster. That means you have access to levels 0-5 of all lists you know. In this case, you could cast Evoke Area Fire 5, which would do 9d6+10 Fire damage in a 50' Fan, Medium Line, Close Cone, or a 30' sphere or 25' Cylinder at long range. You get to decide how the spell is going to go off when you cast it.

Metamagics add to the level of the spell, and you can't push it up past the highest level you can cast.

Basically, EoM stretches every spell concept over ten (sometimes 9) levels.

Want to see what a 0th level wish looks like? A 9th level invisibility? A 1st level power word?

It's in there. The sheer level of versatility in this system is staggering.

I've also noticed it makes things much easier on the GM. They don't have to dig through a zillion books of spells to find out what something does, or to put together an NPC's spellbook. Everything is built into a simple set of lists, from which you derive the individual spell effects.

 

[Bonedagger]

Hmm....let's see if I can explain this one...

Elements of magic tosses out the old ideas of individual spells...or more specifically, it takes the concepts behind the spells and stretches them out into whole lists that span spell levels 0-9.

Spellcasters, depending on their caster level, know so many individual 'lists'. Each spellcaster also has a certain number of Magic Points, based on caster level and casting stat. The cost structure for various levels of spells is the same as for Psi Powers.

For example, let's go with the Evoke Area [Element] list. Since it has a [...] designator in it, you have to pick what it is when you take the list (though you can take the same basic list more than once, for different elements).

In this case, let's say Evoke Area Fire, and you're a 10th level caster. That means you have access to levels 0-5 of all lists you know. In this case, you could cast Evoke Area Fire 5, which would do 9d6+10 Fire damage in a 50' Fan, Medium Line, Close Cone, or a 30' sphere or 25' Cylinder at long range. You get to decide how the spell is going to go off when you cast it.

Metamagics add to the level of the spell, and you can't push it up past the highest level you can cast.

Basically, EoM stretches every spell concept over ten (sometimes 9) levels.

Want to see what a 0th level wish looks like? A 9th level invisibility? A 1st level power word?

It's in there. The sheer level of versatility in this system is staggering.

I've also noticed it makes things much easier on the GM. They don't have to dig through a zillion books of spells to find out what something does, or to put together an NPC's spellbook. Everything is built into a simple set of lists, from which you derive the individual spell effects.

That sound a lot like what they used in that card version of Dragon Lance that came out back in the 2nd ed. days.

I heard a lot of good about that spellsystem from people who had used it.

 

[drakhe]

personally i love wizards.
the odd person obsessed with magic, sitting in their tower researching seems so true to me. and so i wouldn't play anythign else...
<snip>

EXACTLY: why would you bother leaving your tower when
your research is all the exitement you need!

I guess you could ask such a wizard to join a party when the need is high, but I don't think this kind of wizard would out of
himself join/form a party. (again unless the need is high: eg. a special component or a request from the next town)

A sorcerer on the other hand kinda has to learn by experiment, so it would make lots more sense to join/form a party.

 

[drakhe]

Point well taken, but even taking this difference in acount I still don't like them. OK, so you PREPARE spells. Which means a relative high level wizard (lets say a Wiz6 with 4/4/4/3 spells)
when he's done repairing is a walking timebomb running arround with magical energies ready to burst out for 4 level 1, 4 level 2, 4 level 3 and 3 level 4 spells! (thats 15 spells!) And even if this energy is not stored in the wizard, it must be stored somewhere.

The whole concept of somewhere having a store of all this pent up magical energy (even if it's not in or directly arround your person, like maybe in the void or the weave) makes me feel like there is something missing. How long can a spell remain prepared without the energies/void/weave/... dissipating? Or how long before a prepared spell backlashes? Or goes of on its own?

A sorcerer uses magic on the spot: energies/weave/void/.. needed is "taken" on the spot. I do aggree that some form of studie or training is needed if a sorcerer is going to cast more than a few spells. I mean, the (lets call it) mental picture a sorcerer needs to draw does also get more complicated with the level of spell.

A very nice illustration of this is the magic in Wheel of Time. (and I mean the novels, not shure I like the translation in the RPG)
Anybody that can weave (=cast) has a sense for the flow of the different aspects of the Power. At some point in the books its even explained that that differs for each person. Some see the aspects of the Power as strands to be woven, others see the aspects of the Power in a totaly different way. When you weave a spell, you "combine" in one manner or another ammounts of energy from the different aspects of the Power (air, earth, fire, healing, ...) to achieve a certain effect. Training will allow you to weave faster or increase the effect, while study might actualy give you an easier weave (that uses less aspects) than the one you allready know. The limit of an Aes Sedai (or an A'shaman as the male magic-users are known) is defined by endurance. A weave costs "an ammount of effort" and wears a magic-user down physicaly.

Another point: Clerics are even simpler: a spell cast by a Cleric is simply a prayer directed at the Clerics Deity, so why would they need to prepare? I can understand that occasionaly a Cleric will wan't to spend some time with his prayerbook to commit some not so often used prayer to memory, but take the basic spells: healing: one would guess a cleric uses these prayers so often they are branded in his mind.