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PF Wizkids should take the Pathfinder 1.0 ruleset and publish their own RPG.

Parmandur

Legend
Again I am reminded of the days of 3e, and again I solemnly wonder whether or not I should just leave D&D entirely if this is the shape of things to come.
This has already outlasted the d20 boom and bust cycle, and seems to be picking up steam.
 

Aldarc

Adventurer
Based on the postings on these forums to begin with people want more 5e material. They want it on other forums. They want it on Twitter. So no. Your highly restricted individual viewpoint is not at all reflective of the gaming market. Not even close.
And people are clamoring for McDonald's hamburgers and Starbucks coffee across the world. We should build more McDonalds and Starbucks and hail them as the culmination of human culinary achievements.

There are other game systems out there. Why keep playing something you hate.
I do not hate 5e. I hate its monopolizing effect on the hobby. I hate that this is the only thing that some people want to play without consideration, knowledge, or even experience of other systems and yet treat 5e as if it were the One-True-Way to TTRPG.
 

Xenonnonex

Explorer
And people are clamoring for McDonald's hamburgers and Starbucks coffee across the world. We should build more McDonalds and Starbucks and hail them as the culmination of human culinary achievements.
This is completely irrelevant.

I do not hate 5e. I hate its monopolizing effect on the hobby. I hate that this is the only thing that some people want to play without consideration, knowledge, or even experience of other systems and yet treat 5e as if it were the One-True-Way to TTRPG.
So play other RPGs. Teach people other RPGs. Do not care what the mass market is doing. How do you know that 5e is not the thing that gives people the most joy and fun?

Unless what you really want to do is complain.
 

Retreater

Adventurer
I do not hate 5e. I hate its monopolizing effect on the hobby. I hate that this is the only thing that some people want to play without consideration, knowledge, or even experience of other systems and yet treat 5e as if it were the One-True-Way to TTRPG.
I'm definitely not a 5e apologist, and 5e isn't the system I'm running most frequently these days (looking at Call of Cthulhu, Dungeon World, and Savage Worlds). So my experience is that 5e, while being a juggernaut in many gaming circles, hasn't completely monopolized the hobby.

I would say that during the 3.x/d20 era, that system came closer to fully monopolizing the hobby. There were d20 variants of every genre (d20 anime, d20 supers, d20 Star Wars, d20 Call of Cthulhu, d20 Conan, d20 Modern, d20 Future, etc).

Today there are so many games. The rising tide of 5e, social media exposure, Kickstarter, and other outlets have increased the number of players so there is a wealth of other systems available.
 

Parmandur

Legend
I'm definitely not a 5e apologist, and 5e isn't the system I'm running most frequently these days (looking at Call of Cthulhu, Dungeon World, and Savage Worlds). So my experience is that 5e, while being a juggernaut in many gaming circles, hasn't completely monopolized the hobby.

I would say that during the 3.x/d20 era, that system came closer to fully monopolizing the hobby. There were d20 variants of every genre (d20 anime, d20 supers, d20 Star Wars, d20 Call of Cthulhu, d20 Conan, d20 Modern, d20 Future, etc).

Today there are so many games. The rising tide of 5e, social media exposure, Kickstarter, and other outlets have increased the number of players so there is a wealth of other systems available.
Yeah, it's probably never been better for non-D&D RPGs as a whole. Sure, tons of 5E material out there, because that's where the biggest audience is, but finding an audience is easier than ever.
 

Xenonnonex

Explorer
I'm definitely not a 5e apologist, and 5e isn't the system I'm running most frequently these days (looking at Call of Cthulhu, Dungeon World, and Savage Worlds). So my experience is that 5e, while being a juggernaut in many gaming circles, hasn't completely monopolized the hobby.

I would say that during the 3.x/d20 era, that system came closer to fully monopolizing the hobby. There were d20 variants of every genre (d20 anime, d20 supers, d20 Star Wars, d20 Call of Cthulhu, d20 Conan, d20 Modern, d20 Future, etc).

Today there are so many games. The rising tide of 5e, social media exposure, Kickstarter, and other outlets have increased the number of players so there is a wealth of other systems available.
Yeah, that need for more 5e material is actually motivated by the sparseness of official releases. People are actually wanting more 5e. Not because of Wizards' prior need to mass saturate and dominate the market.

And other RPGs are indeed on the rise.
 

Aldarc

Adventurer
This is completely irrelevant.
I'm sorry that the analogy is lost on you.

So play other RPGs. Teach people other RPGs. Do not care what the mass market is doing.
I try to do so, but the people who seem to be advocating that every company and freelancer should write things for 5e and homogenize the market is only exacerbating the problem.

How do you know that 5e is not the thing that gives people the must joy and fun?
How do you know that it is?

I would say that during the 3.x/d20 era, that system came closer to fully monopolizing the hobby. There were d20 variants of every genre (d20 anime, d20 supers, d20 Star Wars, d20 Call of Cthulhu, d20 Conan, d20 Modern, d20 Future, etc).
I don't know. I'm seeing a similar effect in the market. You can, by the way, easily find 5e compatible books on DriveThruRPG for running 5e Modern, 5e Future, 5e Cyberpunk, or a 5e Supers. There is a 5e compatible book by Sandy Peterson for the Cthulhu Mythos.

Or people are calling for Paizo to abandon their Pathfinder lines to write for 5e. On the Carnival Row thread, some guy said that they would not look at it because it's not 5e. (Not because it was Cypher System, but because it wasn't 5e.) And while not Star Wars or Conan, Lord of the Rings has a 5e adaptation, and we learned this year that a 5e adaptation for Stargate is in the works. Star Wars is tied up in FFG's licensing, but do you not think that 5e a conversion would not be up for consideration otherwise?

So while we are not necessarily seeing one-for-one correspondences in the trend, I hope you can understand or be sympathetic to my worry about 5e's effect on the creative diversity in the market.
 

Parmandur

Legend
I'm sorry that the analogy is lost on you.

I try to do so, but the people who seem to be advocating that every company and freelancer should write things for 5e and homogenize the market is only exacerbating the problem.

How do you know that it is?

I don't know. I'm seeing a similar effect in the market. You can, by the way, easily find 5e compatible books on DriveThruRPG for running 5e Modern, 5e Future, 5e Cyberpunk, or a 5e Supers. There is a 5e compatible book by Sandy Peterson for the Cthulhu Mythos.

Or people are calling for Paizo to abandon their Pathfinder lines to write for 5e. On the Carnival Row thread, some guy said that they would not look at it because it's not 5e. (Not because it was Cypher System, but because it wasn't 5e.) And while not Star Wars or Conan, Lord of the Rings has a 5e adaptation, and we learned this year that a 5e adaptation for Stargate is in the works. Star Wars is tied up in FFG's licensing, but do you not think that 5e a conversion would not be up for consideration otherwise?

So while we are not necessarily seeing one-for-one correspondences in the trend, I hope you can understand or be sympathetic to my worry about 5e's effect on the creative diversity in the market.
How is adaptation of 5E necessarily a threat to creative diversity? I can point to plenty of non-5E games out there just as easily, such as (DCC, Burning Wheel, Powered by the Apocalypse, FATE, Vampire, Star Trek Adventures, Star Wars) that are doing fine. 5E is not a threat to that, y any means.
 

Aldarc

Adventurer
How is adaptation of 5E necessarily a threat to creative diversity? I can point to plenty of non-5E games out there just as easily, such as (DCC, Burning Wheel, Powered by the Apocalypse, FATE, Vampire, Star Trek Adventures, Star Wars) that are doing fine. 5E is not a threat to that, y any means.
Have you ever watched someone repeatedly try to push a large cube through a small round hole and not ask if there were more appropriate and suitable places for that cube on their board? If the answer to every question of "what system would fit best with this setting?" is 5e, then I would tend to find both the TTRPG awareness and creativity of creators to be somewhat lacking, almost putting the cart before the horse.
 

Parmandur

Legend
Have you ever watched someone repeatedly try to push a large cube through a small round hole and not ask if there were more appropriate and suitable places for that cube on their board? If the answer to every question of "what system would fit best with this setting?" is 5e, then I would tend to find both the TTRPG awareness and creativity of creators to be somewhat lacking, almost putting the cart before the horse.
That's not what is happening, the questions being answered are "What system am I playing and familiar enough with to create content for it?" and "What system will people be familiar with enough to buy this product?"

5E can do just about any setting you throw at it. This hasn't stopped people making other systems, by any means, that's going very well. But it is entirely legitimate to use what is both popular and open source. To use the Adventures in Middle Earth example, they have their own system and 5E for Middle Earth. The really successful indie hustlers are publishing for multiple systems, it seems (Goodman Games, Green Ronin, Troll Lord Games, Kobold Press, Sasquatch Games, etc.).
 

Aldarc

Adventurer
That's not what is happening, the questions being answered are "What system am I playing and familiar enough with to create content for it?" and "What system will people be familiar with enough to buy this product?"
Which is a nice, roundabout way of saying that ignorance is breeding more ignorance in a feedback loop in which people are only familiar with 5e and so this is what people mostly make, perpetuating the problem.

5E can do just about any setting you throw at it.
I don't think is even remotely true, and you should know better than that. It's just more of the same "D&D can do everything" line of BS.
 

darjr

I crit!
A very good property, a fantasy one, just released a source book for free Bering their world using Monte Cooks system.
 

Parmandur

Legend
Which is a nice, roundabout way of saying that ignorance is breeding more ignorance in a feedback loop in which people are only familiar with 5e and so this is what people mostly make, perpetuating the problem.
This assumes that there is a problem where it none. Knowing and liking a system that does what one needs is hardly "ignorance."

I don't think is even remotely true, and you should know better than that. It's just more of the same "D&D can do everything" line of BS.
No BS, you can do anything you want with D&D, and 5E is particularly flexible.
 

Parmandur

Legend
And again, tons of systems are out there right now flourishing. How is it a problem that 5E is particularly successful?
 

Aldarc

Adventurer
A very good property, a fantasy one, just released a source book for free Bering their world using Monte Cooks system.
I am aware and I did mention it before even.

This assumes that there is a problem where it none. Knowing and liking a system that does what one needs is hardly "ignorance."
IME, there is a tremendous degree of ignorance of games outside of 5e and D&D, and you can see for yourself a lot of that ignorance in these forums as well. There are a fair number of people who have no real grasp of other systems outside of the D&D brand.

No BS, you can do anything you want with D&D, and 5E is particularly flexible.
Yes, BS. D&D can do D&D well, but the idea that it can do everything is astoundingly absurd.

And again, tons of systems are out there right now flourishing. How is it a problem that 5E is particularly successful?
I'm watching the space of those other systems shrink on the shelves of my hobby stores to make more room for 5e.
 

Parmandur

Legend
I am aware and I did mention it before even.

IME, there is a tremendous degree of ignorance of games outside of 5e and D&D, and you can see for yourself a lot of that ignorance in these forums as well. There are a fair number of people who have no real grasp of other systems outside of the D&D brand.

Yes, BS. D&D can do D&D well, but the idea that it can do everything is astoundingly absurd.

I'm watching the space of those other systems shrink on the shelves of my hobby stores to make more room for 5e.
Hobby stores aren't the place to get RPGs primarily anymore if you want something beyond the standard, the FLGS needs to make their ROI and 5E material is their smart bet as their belts are tightening all around. The indie RPG scene is moving more and more towards ecommerce, including Kickstarter and Patreon. More room for creativity outside the brick and mortar. That's not 5E, that's 2019 retail realities.
 

Parmandur

Legend
And, yes, D&D can do anything, just as Traveller or Story Teller can do anything. Mechanics are not a limit on playing in any setting.
 
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