WoD renaming, White Wolf returns

[VelvetViolet]

As I said before, my advice is write your own material.

I'm trying. Between evil fascist copyright laws suppressing freedom of expression and audiences turning into deranged cargo cults of lore baggage, it's hard for me to maintain my motivation.

 

[Jd Smith1]

I'm trying. Between evil fascist copyright laws suppressing freedom of expression and audiences turning into deranged cargo cults of lore baggage, it's hard for me to maintain my motivation.

Odd how you keep using that phrase.

People owning property isn't usually considered evil, or oppressive. Nor is making money off IPs usually viewed as evil, as I can personally attest.

 

[VelvetViolet]

Odd how you keep using that phrase.

People owning property isn't usually considered evil, or oppressive. Nor is making money off IPs usually viewed as evil, as I can personally attest.

Have fun beating those straw men.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Creativity isn't a zero sum game, it's just that publishers are evil and hate creativity.

This is a super-weird take. Those publishers were the ones who created the original brands you like.

I'm not even sure what you're upset about at this point, other than wanting to say "skinsuit" as many times as possible.

You want them to revive the old brands and support them, but not in a way you dislike, but also not to wring the brands dry by continuing to publish just for the sake of publishing. Those goals feel contradictory.

The real answer is to find the system you like, get the old PDFs, get them printed off or PoD and then get the new material produced by fans through the companies' sanctioned fan-supported lines.

Expecting anyone, evil corporation or just a self-publishing creator, to indefinitely produce material you like -- and only material you like -- is inevitably going to leave you unhappy.

 

[Jd Smith1]

Have fun beating those straw men.

My royalty checks are not straw.

I don't think you really understand how IP works.

 

[VelvetViolet]

This is a super-weird take. Those publishers were the ones who created the original brands you like.

That was back before they went evil, or at least when the evil was a lot easier to ignore than the dystopia we live in right now.

I'm not even sure what you're upset about at this point, other than wanting to say "skinsuit" as many times as possible.

Multiple things. I’m upset that various old IPs I liked were canceled and buried, or else driven into the ground and stripped of everything I liked in the first place. I’m upset that new IPs aren’t given a chance to flourish either, unless they get shoehorned into established IPs. All of this is the result of centralized monopolistic corporate ownership of artistic production. It’s killing art.

You want them to revive the old brands and support them, but not in a way you dislike, but also not to wring the brands dry by continuing to publish just for the sake of publishing. Those goals feel contradictory.

I know that, believe me. Am I the only one who feels that way? I get the impression from all the angry fan discourse that this is how so many fans feel. They want the publisher to only produce content they personally like and at a consistent level of quality. I know that unrealistic, you know that unrealistic, but this angry fandom discourse keeps complaining about it.

The way to fix this would be for the publisher to release the IP into public domain. That way the fans can make new works and make it to suit their tastes, without any pesky interference.

The real answer is to find the system you like, get the old PDFs, get them printed off or PoD and then get the new material produced by fans through the companies' sanctioned fan-supported lines.

What? That’s not feasible. None of the systems I like are supported by any publisher, and most aren’t legally available in PDF either. That’s why I’m unhappy. I wouldn’t be unhappy if that was an option.

Expecting anyone, evil corporation or just a self-publishing creator, to indefinitely produce material you like -- and only material you like -- is inevitably going to leave you unhappy.

Exactly. Which is why those tightfisted corpos and creators who are being attacked by the fandom menace, or who have no intention of stewarding their IPs, should release those IPs into public domain so than anybody who cares can take a crack at them. So much of the fandom menace would just vanish if they could fork their own versions of these IPs that they could tailor to their tastes. So many dead canceled IPs could get a new lease on life. Indie creators trying to make original work would benefit from a plethora of new sources of inspiration becoming free to read and reference.

 

[Jd Smith1]

That was back before they went evil, or at least when the evil was a lot easier to ignore than the dystopia we live in right now.

Oy.

Multiple things. I’m upset that various old IPs I liked were canceled and buried, or else driven into the ground and stripped of everything I liked in the first place. I’m upset that new IPs aren’t given a chance to flourish either, unless they get shoehorned into established IPs. All of this is the result of centralized monopolistic corporate ownership of artistic production. It’s killing art.

So you're upset that people are using their property in the way they think best, and not the way you think they should do it?

The way to fix this would be for the publisher to release the IP into public domain. That way the fans can make new works and make it to suit their tastes, without any pesky interference.

Or, and here's a thought, the owners keep their property, and the fans can get over it. Or just adjust the material for their own tables, where copyright law is not an issue.

What? That’s not feasible. None of the systems I like are supported by any publisher, and most aren’t legally available in PDF either. That’s why I’m unhappy. I wouldn’t be unhappy if that was an option.

That is, indeed, a tragedy.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Multiple things. I’m upset that various old IPs I liked were canceled and buried, or else driven into the ground and stripped of everything I liked in the first place. I’m upset that new IPs aren’t given a chance to flourish either, unless they get shoehorned into established IPs. All of this is the result of centralized monopolistic corporate ownership of artistic production. It’s killing art.

I've got problems with corporations myself, but Chronicles of Darkness had a very long publication run. They had plenty of chance to flourish.

And again, what you're ultimately upset at is that Amazon killed brick and mortar bookstores that used to pay companies up front for books and then sell back what didn't move, assuming they remembered to do so. This was a big part of how TSR kept limping along with books that actually cost them more to produce than they were ultimately making. It was a business model that was going to fall, even without Amazon's interference.

I know that, believe me. Am I the only one who feels that way? I get the impression from all the angry fan discourse that this is how so many fans feel. They want the publisher to only produce content they personally like and at a consistent level of quality. I know that unrealistic, you know that unrealistic, but this angry fandom discourse keeps complaining about it.

I don't know what online spaces you're normally in, but we're not seeing a lot of people angry at Paradox/White Wolf around here other than you.

The way to fix this would be for the publisher to release the IP into public domain. That way the fans can make new works and make it to suit their tastes, without any pesky interference.

I'm not sure how much interference White Wolf is offering with fanpro Vault stuff, unless you're mad that we're not getting WoD: Gypsy 2 or something. Looking on DriveThruRPG, it seems like fans are producing whatever they feel like for World of Darkness.

What? That’s not feasible. None of the systems I like are supported by any publisher, and most aren’t legally available in PDF either. That’s why I’m unhappy. I wouldn’t be unhappy if that was an option.

This thread is about World of Darkness, isn't it? That's all over DriveThruRPG. whether it's very old stuff, very new stuff, or fan-published stuff.

Exactly. Which is why those tightfisted corpos and creators who are being attacked by the fandom menace, or who have no intention of stewarding their IPs, should release those IPs into public domain so than anybody who cares can take a crack at them.

Again, what stuff isn't being created via the Storyteller Vault right now?

 

[Stormonu]

@VelvetViolet - Brujah has entered the chat

Though, I do share a mutual disdain for copyright (and its length)

 

[VelvetViolet]

I've got problems with corporations myself, but Chronicles of Darkness had a very long publication run. They had plenty of chance to flourish.

They did. Paradox cancelled it because it didn’t come out in the 90s. How is that fair? Changeling: The Lost is widely considered superior to Changeling: The Dreaming even by most fans of the latter, but we’ll sooner see a (mutilated skinsuit) revival of the latter simply due to seniority. It’s so stupid. Not that I expect Paradox to do Lost any justice if they revived it. No, they’d just turn it into another skinsuit devoid of everything that made the original popular.

That’s why I’m working on my own original IP inspired by Lost. It’s a neat premise I haven’t seen used elsewhere in this pop culture wasteland, so I don’t want to let it just vanish.

I don't know what online spaces you're normally in, but we're not seeing a lot of people angry at Paradox/White Wolf around here other than you.

How many people on this forum care? It’s mostly D&D, isn’t it? If you look at the Steam forums for Bloodlines 2, you’ll see a lot of vitriol being directed at Paradox for all their creative decisions. That’s where I’m coming from.

Although I’ll give credit to Lost and Vigil for their neat ideas, ultimately I want to see Paradox/White Wolf crash and burn. This stupid IP has been strangling the urban fantasy space for decades. I want to see new IPs get chances to flourish.

It was a business model that was going to fall, even without Amazon's interference.

I think that’s a weak excuse, honestly. Yeah, a lot of that content was just plain filler, but the current indie games rarely break, what, a dozen pages? If they had passion and drive, then they could totally worldbuild settings that rival the classics.

Whenever I tell the fandom menace to make their own IPs or patronize new IPs, they always say that they’re too lazy, that new IPs all suck, that nobody wants new IPs. It’s all excuses. There is a market for new IPs and you’re just being lazy by not trying to exploit it.

StokerVerse released a couple of years ago and the production values are just amazing. Amazing games can still be made and are being made. Excuses are excuses.

This thread is about World of Darkness, isn't it? That's all over DriveThruRPG.

eh… I used to be a fan of Chronicles about 20 years ago. (WoD fans cyberbullied me for liking it, so I hate WoD and love seeing it get turned into a skinsuit that upsets the fandom menace.) After I had years to grow up and diversify my tastes, I came to realize the IP is simply mediocre. As with all worldbuilding and lore and similar trivia, it’s mostly filler trying desperately to justify its existence and a handful of gems that are frustratingly ignored. Hunter: The Vigil and Changeling: The Lost are the best of the bunch and that’s by a huge margin. The latter games like geist the sin eaters, beast the primordial and demon the descent are just plain awful because they lack the strong foundations that Lost and Vigil do. Vampire the requiem, werewolf the forsaken, and mage the awakening are stronger but could totally benefit from reboots to make them more like Lost and Vigil. Promethean is pure art house that was done a disservice by being forced into this IP. Also, it’s incredibly stupid that WW divided these all into separate games rather than making one game where you can play a variety of archetypal magical creatures. I think Lost and Vigil can stand on their own, but Forsaken and Awakening are too weak and should have been folded into Requiem to make a monster mash game.

I think C.J. Carella’s WitchCraft is a superior urban fantasy game and overall better suits my tastes. It unfortunately has been canceled since before Chronicles was even published.

Urban fantasy is a really neglected genre in ttrpgs. I mean, all genres except like medieval fantasy and cthulhu are hugely neglected, but still. Between WoD/CoD, Nightlife, Everlasting, Nightbane, WitchCraft, Nephilim and Fireborn, pretty much all the best premises you could think of have been done and copyrighted. I haven’t seen a single interesting urban fantasy game setting released since the 2000s.