Worlds of Design: Gun vs. Sword

Lanchester’s Power [Linear and Square] Laws mean that combat in science fiction RPGs will usually be fundamentally different than combat in fantasy RPGs. Or the designer will have to somehow compensate, as in Star Wars.

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Image by Andrea Wierer from Pixabay

F. W. Lanchester, a polymath, inventor, and co-founder of operations research (a subfield of applied mathematics), examined before and during World War I the effects of melee and firepower in attritional combat. This examination was part of Lanchester’s Power Laws. Here we’re discussing how these differences mean that combat in fantasy RPGs, as compared with science fiction RPGs, will usually be fundamentally different unless the designer somehow compensates, as in Star Wars.

Lanchester calculated that in attritional melee the strength of a force is proportional to its number, because there is no action at a distance (“Lanchester’s Linear Law”). It amounts to a 1 vs. 1 environment. In an era of firepower, where military units can act at a distance, the strength of a force in attritional combat is proportional to the square of its numbers. (Hence, “Lanchester’s Square Law.”)

For example, in a melee of 5 vs 10 (or 5,000 vs 10,000), in the time it takes the 5 to inflict one damage, the 10 will inflict two damage (or 1,000 and 2,000 damage). In a firepower situation, the 5 have a relative strength of 25, while the 10 have a relative strength of 100, or 1 to 4. So in the time it takes the 5 to inflict one damage, the 10 will inflict four.

Thinking in immediately practical terms, imagine a typical sword/axe/club melee in an RPG versus a typical pistol and rifle and grenade fight today, and more in a future of blasters. (Keep in mind, the monsters we often fight are also melee weapons, in effect.) Without the effects of fantasy superheroes, the melee is man-against-man, and even a great swordsman cannot dominate a big melee. In the fight of today or the future, a man with a ranged weapon, especially an automatic weapon or an explosive-projecting weapon, can kill dozens in a short time.

A designer of a science fiction RPG faces a problem; firepower-based combat must be very different from melee combat, and probably less satisfying for the players. What can the author/designer do to solve this problem plausibly?

Star Wars compensates for this with the Jedi and light sabers. An adequately trained Jedi with a light saber can block huge numbers of blaster bolts without fail (even though it’s physically impossible if three shots are on target at the same time). He/she can use their light saber to overcome opposing armor and other factors associated with advanced weapons technology, right down to cutting through steel bulkheads. The more or less artificial scarcity of light sabers assures that few soldiers have these advantages, quite apart from the Jedi’s Force powers. Of course, Star Wars Stormtroopers can’t hit the broad side of a barn, either, nor do they use automatic weapons and explosives much.

In many ways, you can think of melee vs firepower as the difference between knife fights and automatic/semi-automatic gunfights. The movie Starship Troopers just ignores tanks and aircraft in order to provide a more visceral melee-like experience as troops fight monsters at short range and hand-to-hand. “Let’s ignore our invulnerable stuff and only bring a knife to the knife fight.” Duh. I think of E. R. Burroughs’ Barsoom stories, where many melees took place in a land with very long-range rifles and explosive bullets, because of “honor” - it was dishonorable to escalate a swordfight to a gunfight. This is one way that an author or designer can compensate for firepower: just don’t use it (except for ship-to-ship combat).

Back to fantasy. What about archery? Standard archery is much closer to melee than firepower, owing to short range, slow action (crossbows), and ammunition limitations. When English longbowmen dominated battles in the Hundred Years War*, they used a weapon that could be fired rapidly by skilled archers, yet use a large supply of ammunition because England was mobilized to mass produce (and transport) arrows. After the development of muskets, longbows would still have been a better weapon given skilled archers and a massive supply of arrows; but musket ammunition was far more compact and easily produced, and it was far easier to train a man to fire a musket adequately, than to fire a longbow rapidly.

Where fantasy moves into the realms of firepower is magic-users using fireballs, lightning bolts, and similar area effect damage spells. Which may help us understand why spellcasters can be the “ace in the hole” and can dominate a battle. Dragon fire may have similar effects.

In other words, there’s rarely a pure melee or pure firepower skirmish situation in games. Yet the higher you move on the spectrum from tactical to strategic, the more Lanchester’s Linear and Square Laws take effect, even though his mathematics only applied to a specific kind of battle. I have simplified the specific circumstances of the Laws for this short piece. You can get more detail from the Wikipedia article cited above.

I’m sure readers can provide many other examples of ways authors and designers have returned science fiction skirmishes to melee parameters.

*Reference: Bernard Cornwell’s excellent historical novels about the battles of Crecy and Agincourt. The protagonist is an English longbowman.
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio
I do think that the more you are dealing with something like a bullet, which flies too fast to be reacted to, the less easy it is to swallow the explanation that the character is dodging at the last minute and thus only being nicked by the attack. At some point if you mix guns and classic D&D style hit point system, it just feels like the hits should be more random and if more random then more lethal instead of concentrated around the edge of the target as they would be in D&D.
Perhaps that is how some people look at it, but to me a character with high HP isn't dodging the bullet (unless he's Neo), he's dodging the gunman. Which is really what is happening with a sword as well. Bullets can't generally change direction mid-flight, but a swordsman can certainly adjust his attack mid thrust (switching to a feint and then attacking from a new angle).

My ex's grand dad's WW2 anecdotes from the 3rd Infantry Division are full of tales of NOT killing Germans when he had the chance. I saw 'Bomb Happy' at the Edinburgh Fringe recently and it had some of that too.

But it may have been a factor of 'civilians in uniform' with enemies of a common race & culture. The WW2 Pacific Theatre, and Vietnam War, seem to have been completely different. It may also have been an ethnic-European thing,or at least common-culture thing. I don't think WW2 Japanese & Chinese had this problem.
I think what it comes down to is that people are complicated. I have little doubt that irrespective of the war, there were inexperienced soldiers who hesitated at killing, as well as those who had no such reticence. Those who study such matters may be able to suss out generalities, but those will not necessarily apply to any given individual.
 

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This gets to flavoring HP. Players always like the think of HP as literal "health" like the Doom guy's picture getting wounded as it runs out. Then you use bandages, and hey presto, no more bleeding wounds!

I'm with Morrus, I much prefer the 5E style of HP as "stamina" where you are running down and getting sloppier. A high level character is more alert, has better instincts, and superior situational awareness to avoid being genuinely injured. This is why you heal to full with resting.

That's not just new to 5E, I'm pretty sure that Gygax made roughly the same justification back in the day.

The problem is that things like falling damage end up feeling rather ridiculous for high level characters. So a lot of it comes down to what you want hit points to represent, which necessarily involves choosing which parts of the game won't be so well represented.

All that said, I do think that hit points, as warty as they can be, are practical. They allow the game to proceed with very dramatically different scales of monsters.
 

I remember reading something about the ridiculousness of hit points in regards to Palladium Fantasy (which isn't D&D of course) written in to one of the gaming magazines in the 1980s. It had something to do with a PC deciding to just throw himself on a grenade because he had enough SDC* to absorb all the damage. The reply was something along the lines of, "If the PCs do something that should logically just kill them then just let them die." And I think that's good advice. A dagger might only do 1d4 points of damage but if a PC wants to use one to kill themselves I'm going going to roll for an attack and let him whittle away at those hit points.
 

/snip

As Morrus said upthread, there's this myth we have as gamers to make guns more lethal by comparison than swords, and that's not really as true as people assume. We look at what a 9mm FMJ round does to a clay block and compare that damage to the damage of driving a knife inside it and make that assumption. Fair, but a bit misplaced. There are people who have survived two dozen knife wounds, and people who have survived over a dozen bullet wounds. And there are people who died from one knife wound and people who have died from one bullet wound. There are so many factors, it's just easier to treat them pretty close to the same (just assign a reasonable damage value of the weapon).

Fair enough. But a 9mm pistol round isn't exactly the standard here is it? As soon as we go to long gun rounds, I don't care how strong you are, a .308 round is a HELL of a lot more damaging than a knife or a sword. And, 7.62 mm (close enough to .308) is pretty standard for military grade rifles in a lot of the world. Even 5.56 (NATO) rounds are devastatingly effective.

And, that's not even getting into heavier caliber weaponry.

Frankly, I think this is where the problem lies. Swords and knives, sure, they can kill you. But, if I'm in plate armor, you can bang on my breastplate until the cows come home and all you're really doing is making noise. OTOH, 7.62 mm will blows nice neat holes through that armor and nicely shred the juicy meat bag underneath.

The problem is, we accept a completely abstract combat system in fantasy, but, as soon as we get into modern weaponry (never minding SF weapons which should be even more effective), suspension of disbelief gets a lot harder because a lot of us know what these weapons can do. Unlike swinging a sword, there's lots of us here who actually have fired firearms.

Or, to put it another way, if knives and swords actually were equivalent to firearms, why have they been more or less completely replaced as the weapon of choice?
 

Fair enough. But a 9mm pistol round isn't exactly the standard here is it? As soon as we go to long gun rounds, I don't care how strong you are, a .308 round is a HELL of a lot more damaging than a knife or a sword. And, 7.62 mm (close enough to .308) is pretty standard for military grade rifles in a lot of the world. Even 5.56 (NATO) rounds are devastatingly effective.

And, that's not even getting into heavier caliber weaponry.

Frankly, I think this is where the problem lies. Swords and knives, sure, they can kill you. But, if I'm in plate armor, you can bang on my breastplate until the cows come home and all you're really doing is making noise. OTOH, 7.62 mm will blows nice neat holes through that armor and nicely shred the juicy meat bag underneath.

The problem is, we accept a completely abstract combat system in fantasy, but, as soon as we get into modern weaponry (never minding SF weapons which should be even more effective), suspension of disbelief gets a lot harder because a lot of us know what these weapons can do. Unlike swinging a sword, there's lots of us here who actually have fired firearms.

Or, to put it another way, if knives and swords actually were equivalent to firearms, why have they been more or less completely replaced as the weapon of choice?

Couple things. A 7.62 IS a .308 for all intents an purposes, just like a .223 is a 5.56. I’m being pedantic, I know lol

Also, a .308 isn’t more damaging than a sword, or axe, or mace. As Morrus was inferring, and I was also saying, there are a lot of factors. Location being one of them. A sword can take your head off (or another limb). A .308 can shatter bones and cause a wound channel bad enough you might as well have had your head decapitated, but it isn’t more damaging.

The armor thing certainly is a worthy topic, and one we’ve all had. With that, I’d say because we already ignore how a bodkin arrow or spear or thrusting sword make mail armor obsolete, (we still give the target full AC value), then it’s not unfair to do the same with firearms. Well, in 1e Gygax accounted for it, but we quickly found out how most gamers ignored that chart. Therefore, it’s fair to assume players shouldn’t get caught up with firearms either if they want to be consistent.

And if you do want to account for it, just give a bonus to hit against armored targets.

For you last question, it’s because you need way less training with a firearm, and you have a much greater effective range. That’s said, when I was in the military in the 90s, we were still very much trained in hand to hand combat with things like bayonets because you run out of ammo
 

I think modern weapons are largely overrated in lethality compared to melee weapons. I blame pop culture and media representations. For example, in the Vegas shooting (5.56 cal used), there were 58 killed, and 422 wounded by bullets). In D&D terms, the victims were all commoners. So what would be the damage range for a weapon that when a successful hit is made, 15% or so die? Is it more than a sword?
 

Heavier high velocity rounds, especially rifles, just ARE a lot more deadly than arrows or melee weapons. One big reason seems to be that stabbing & slashing weapons slide through flesh - the flesh has time to 'get out of the way' - while high velocity bullets tear and destroy it. At the higher range bullets impart huge amounts of energy, far more than a physical blow could.

Now, no weapon instantly/quickly kills people most of the time until you're getting up into stuff firing .50 long ammunition like the Browning .50 machine gun and Barratt .50 sniper rifle - knife & sword wounds don't; arrows certainly don't; bullets don't. Hollywood certainly massively over rates the lethality of all weapons. That doesn't mean some aren't more lethal than others.
 

The problem is that things like falling damage end up feeling rather ridiculous for high level characters. So a lot of it comes down to what you want hit points to represent, which necessarily involves choosing which parts of the game won't be so well represented.

All that said, I do think that hit points, as warty as they can be, are practical. They allow the game to proceed with very dramatically different scales of monsters.
I agree that hit points are quite practical.

That said, I think that most issues with HP go away if we simply reframe how we look at them.

Hit points (IMO) are essentially akin to the resilience that important characters in a story have (aka, plot armor). If you're watching TV or reading a book, and an important character falls off a ledge and plumets to their inevitable demise, there's a nearly 100% chance that the character will survive. To the point where that old trope has been a cliche for years now.

Generally speaking, it's not really an issue unless you're expecting HP to model reality or there's metagaming involved.

In the former, a high level character is among the great heroes, like Hercules or Odysseus, so expecting realism is arguably about having mismatched expectations. If Hercules or Odysseus tumbled off a cliff you can bet either one would walk away from it.

As for the latter, it can be an issue if players of high level characters have them behave as though they were aware of that plot armor, but outside of perhaps comedy, we'd balk at any writer that had a character behave in such a manner (throwing themselves off cliff after cliff because "I've got the hit points". In that case it isn't the HP system that is at issue, but rather the player's metagaming.

I remember reading something about the ridiculousness of hit points in regards to Palladium Fantasy (which isn't D&D of course) written in to one of the gaming magazines in the 1980s. It had something to do with a PC deciding to just throw himself on a grenade because he had enough SDC* to absorb all the damage. The reply was something along the lines of, "If the PCs do something that should logically just kill them then just let them die." And I think that's good advice. A dagger might only do 1d4 points of damage but if a PC wants to use one to kill themselves I'm going going to roll for an attack and let him whittle away at those hit points.
This brought to mind an episode of MASH where a grenade gets tossed and (IIRC) Col Potter throws himself on the grenade. There's a tense moment, but the grenade is a dud, and everyone is okay.

That said, if the player throws his character on grenade after grenade, I'd agree, just let them die.

Back in the day, when we were playing 3rd edition, we ended up with a very high level party (somewhere around 25 I think). We came across a group of powerful creatures who had opposed us for much of the campaign. They offered to allow us to be reborn as one of them, and offered us a rusty dagger. And that's the story of how, one-by-one, each character of a epic level party slit their own throat. Self inflicted TPK. The DM still likes to trot that one out when he's in the mood to gloat.

Fair enough. But a 9mm pistol round isn't exactly the standard here is it? As soon as we go to long gun rounds, I don't care how strong you are, a .308 round is a HELL of a lot more damaging than a knife or a sword. And, 7.62 mm (close enough to .308) is pretty standard for military grade rifles in a lot of the world. Even 5.56 (NATO) rounds are devastatingly effective.

And, that's not even getting into heavier caliber weaponry.

Frankly, I think this is where the problem lies. Swords and knives, sure, they can kill you. But, if I'm in plate armor, you can bang on my breastplate until the cows come home and all you're really doing is making noise. OTOH, 7.62 mm will blows nice neat holes through that armor and nicely shred the juicy meat bag underneath.

The problem is, we accept a completely abstract combat system in fantasy, but, as soon as we get into modern weaponry (never minding SF weapons which should be even more effective), suspension of disbelief gets a lot harder because a lot of us know what these weapons can do. Unlike swinging a sword, there's lots of us here who actually have fired firearms.

Or, to put it another way, if knives and swords actually were equivalent to firearms, why have they been more or less completely replaced as the weapon of choice?
A near miss is still a near miss, whether it's from a .308 or a .22. That's what I'd argue is the case for a high hit point character facing off against someone with a modern military rifle. You might be getting peppered with debris as the rounds shred through anything around you, but you haven't actually been hit until you're reduced to 0. I could totally see a rule that makes stabilizing a character brought to 0 with such a weapon more difficult.

There were weapons even before modern rifles that were designed to kill an armored opponent. Warhammers and the like. No standing around all day against those weapons. You could always bring back the old weapon vs armor charts if that sort of thing interests you, but it's not my thing.

That said, some games like Stars Without Number do go a more realistic approach. More advanced weaponry will typically ignore less advanced armor. High powered weapons are likely to put a low level character on the ground in one shot. Even high level characters probably can't handle more than 2 or 3 shots. Truly powerful weapons, like those mounted on a starship, will outright kill most characters unless the GM rules otherwise. Of course, the game makes it possible to resuscitate dying characters with med patches or psychic powers (unless the GM rules that the character is beyond saving), and also makes rolling up replacement characters fairly quick. Obviously, SWN assumes a less heroic tone by default.
 

The new Star Trek Adventures game has an interesting asymmetry to range vs. melee combat which is I think designed not to be realistic, but rather to justify genre expectations <...>

STA and the other Modiphius 2D20 games are 100% aimed at genre emulation more than any kind of simulation of "reality." For instance, Stress and Wounds, which are common to all 2D20 games, are quite clearly set up to feel like a fairly pulpy action show and in STA you have to take Threat to make lethal attacks. STA's starship combat is really quite good, too. It "feels" like starship combat in the shows.
 

I agree that hit points are quite practical.

That said, I think that most issues with HP go away if we simply reframe how we look at them. Hit points (IMO) are essentially akin to the resilience that important characters in a story have (aka, plot armor). <...>

Generally speaking, it's not really an issue unless you're expecting HP to model reality or there's metagaming involved.

I agree, the real issue shows up when people start meta-gaming Hit Points. Falling I think is one of the worst examples in D&D, though, because of how much experience people have IRL with it (alas, I have a lot of experience with falling, and the injuries to prove it). I agree with you that in many ways "plot armor" would make a fall not lethal, but it's not something that one would blithely laugh off either, but that's exactly what a high level fighter type can do. The issue here is not that other things aren't analogous, such as getting stomped on by a dragon, but because it starts to hit the "uncanny valley" and rub against the secondary reality people are trying to build in the game. Metagaming this is so bad because it exploits a strange aspect of the rules.
 

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