Worlds of Design: The Problem with Magimarts

I dislike magic item stores. Here's why.

Picture courtesy of Pixabay.​

Magic items are a part of every fantasy role-playing game, and wherever player characters meet, someone will want to buy or sell such items. What the players do among themselves is their business, in most cases; but when non-player characters (NPC) are involved the GM must know where magic items come from, how rare they are, and how hard it is to produce them. [Quoting myself from 40+ years ago]

Magimart: Still a Bad Idea​

I don't like the idea of "Magimarts" -- something like a bookstore or small department store, often with a public storefront, where adventurers can come and purchase (or sell) magic items. I said as much over 40 years ago in an article titled “Magimart: Buying and Selling Magic Items” in White Dwarf magazine. My point then still stands: at least for me and in my games, magic-selling stores don’t make sense.

They don’t make sense from a design point of view, as they may unbalance a campaign or cause power-creep. From an adventure point of view such stores partly eliminates the need to quest for specific powerful magic items. From a realistic point of view they would only provide targets for those who are happy to steal.

The Design Point of View​

From a game design point of view, how experience points, gold, and magic fit together makes a big difference. For example, if you get experience points for selling a magic item (even to NPCs), as well as for the gold you get, adventurers will sell magic items more often. If adventurers acquire scads of treasure and have nothing (such as taxes or “training”) to significantly reduce their fortunes, then big-time magic items are going to cost an awful lot of money, but some will be bought. If gold is in short supply (as you’d expect in anything approaching a real world) then anyone with a whole lot of gold might be able to buy big-time magic items.

Long campaigns need a way for magic items to change ownership, other than theft. As an RPG player I like to trade magic items to other characters in return for other magic items. But there are no “magic stores.” Usability is a big part of it: if my magic user has a magic sword that a fighter wants, he might trade me an item that I could use as a magic user. (Some campaigns allocate found magic items only to characters who can use them. We just dice for selecting the things (a sort of draft) and let trading sort it out, much simpler and less likely to lead to argument about who can use/who needs what.)

The Adventure Point of Views​

Will magic stores promote enjoyable adventuring? It depends on the style of play, but for players primarily interested in challenging adventures, they may not want to be able to go into a somehow-invulnerable magic store and buy or trade for what they want.

Magic-selling stores remind me of the question “why do dungeons exist”. A common excuse (not reason) is “some mad (and very powerful) wizard made it.” Yeah, sure. Excuses for magic-selling stores need to be even wilder than that!

I think of magic-item trading and selling amongst characters as a kind of secretive black market. Yes, it may happen, but each transaction is fraught with opportunities for deceit. Perhaps like a black market for stolen diamonds? This is not something you’re likely to do out in the open, nor on a regular mass basis.

The Realistic Point of View​

“Why do you rob banks?” the thief is asked. “’Cause that’s where the money is.”

Realistically, what do you think will happen if someone maintains a location containing magic items on a regular basis? Magimarts are a major flashpoint in the the dichotomy between believability (given initial assumptions of magic and spell-casting) and "Rule of Cool" ("if it's cool, it's OK").

In most campaigns, magic items will be quite rare. Or magic items that do commonplace things (such as a magic self-heating cast iron pan) may be common but the items that are useful in conflict will be rare. After all, if combat-useful magic items are commonplace, why would anyone take the risk of going into a “dungeon” full of dangers to find some? (Would dungeon-delving become purely a non-magical treasure-hunting activity if magic items are commonplace?)

And for the villains, magimarts seem like an easy score. If someone is kind enough to gather a lot of magic items in a convenient, known place, why not steal those rather than go to a lot of time and effort, risk and chance, to explore dungeons and ruins for items? There may be lots of money there as well!

When Magimarts Make Sense​

If your campaign is one where magic is very common, then magic shops may make sense - though only for common stuff, not for rare/powerful items. And magic-selling stores can provide reasons for adventures:

• Find the kidnapped proprietor who is the only one who can access all that magic.
• Be the guards for a magic store.
• Chase down the crooks who stole some or all of the magic from the store.

Maybe a clever proprietor has figured out a way to make the items accessible only to him or her. But some spells let a caster take over the mind of the victim, and can use the victim to access the items. And if someone is so powerful that he or she can protect a magic store against those who want to raid it, won't they likely have better/more interesting things to do with their time? (As an aside, my wife points out that a powerful character might gather a collection of magic items in the same way that a rich person might gather a collection of artworks. But these won’t be available to “the public” in most cases. Still just as some people rob art museums, some might rob magic collections.)

Of course, any kind of magic trading offers lots of opportunities for deception. You might find out that the sword you bought has a curse, or that the potion isn’t what it’s supposed to be. Many GMs ignore this kind of opportunity and let players buy and sell items at standard prices without possibility of being bilked. Fair enough, it’s not part of the core adventure/story purposes of RPGs. And magic stores are a cheap way for a GM to allow trade in magic items.

Your Turn: What part do magic-selling stores play in your games?

 

[Distracted DM]

The 2e dmg talks about them on pg116 but what it says is more complicated than "you can't buy magic items"

Spoiler

Buying Magical Items
As player characters earn more money and begin facing
greater dangers, some of them will begin wondering where
they can buy magical items. Using 20th-century, real-world
economics, they will figure there must be stores that buy and
sell such goods. Naturally they will want to find and patronize
such stores. However, no magical stores exist.
Before the DM goes rushing off to create magical item
shops, consider the player characters and their behavior. Just
how often do player characters sell those potions and scrolls
they find? Cast in a sword +1? Unload a horn of blasting or a
ring of free action?
More often than not, player characters save such items.
Certainly they don’t give away one-use items. One can
never have too many potions of healing or scrolls with extra
spells. Sooner or later the character might run out. Already
have a sword +1? Maybe a henchman or hireling could use
such a weapon (and develop a greater respect for his mas-
ter). Give up the only horn of blasting the party has? Not
very likely at all.
It is reasonable to assume that if the player characters
aren’t giving up their goods, neither are any nonplayer char-
acters. And if adventurers aren’t selling their finds, then
there isn’t enough trade in magical items to sustain such a
business.
Even if the characters do occasionally sell a magical item,
setting up a magic shop is not a good idea. Where is the
sense of adventure in going into a store and buying a sword
+1? Haggling over the price of a wand? Player characters
should feel like adventurers, not merchants or greengrocers.
Consider this as well: If a wizard or priest can buy any item
he needs, why should he waste time attempting to make the
item himself? Magical item research is an important role-play-
ing element in the game, and opening a magic emporium kills
it. There is a far different sense of pride on the player’s part
when using a wand his character has made, or found after
perilous adventure, as opposed to one he just bought.
Finally, buying and trading magic presumes a large num-
ber of magical items in the society. This lessens the DM’s
control over the whole business. Logically-minded players will
point out the inconsistency of a well-stocked magic shop in a
campaign otherwise sparse in such rewards.

elsewhere it also talks about how the DM might want to make potions of healing readily available (pg120). It talks at length about pros

& cons to consider with a world that has rare vrs common magic items making it even more complicated to pinpoint a specific stance. I'd summarize it with make them as common as needed for fun without going overboard & take every opportunity you can to use working with players crafting magic items to justify cool adventures.

Thank you for pulling this entry! That is what I was thinking of.

 

[FireLance]

If there are magic stores strewn about the land why aren't the local lords (bandit or otherwise) capitalizing on this?
Why aren't there armies of guys with +3 swords running around?
Fantasy game economies have never made sense to me.

Again, the logical fallacy here seems to be: if some magic items (for example, potions of healing) are available for sale, any and all magic items (for example, +3 weapons or holy avengers) must be available for sale.

And the next quote explains why the D&D economics of no magic item shops doesn't make sense.

The 2e dmg talks about them on pg116 but what it says is more complicated than "you can't buy magic items"

Spoiler

Buying Magical Items
As player characters earn more money and begin facing
greater dangers, some of them will begin wondering where
they can buy magical items. Using 20th-century, real-world
economics, they will figure there must be stores that buy and
sell such goods. Naturally they will want to find and patronize
such stores. However, no magical stores exist.
Before the DM goes rushing off to create magical item
shops, consider the player characters and their behavior. Just
how often do player characters sell those potions and scrolls
they find? Cast in a sword +1? Unload a horn of blasting or a
ring of free action?
More often than not, player characters save such items.
Certainly they don’t give away one-use items. One can
never have too many potions of healing or scrolls with extra
spells. Sooner or later the character might run out. Already
have a sword +1? Maybe a henchman or hireling could use
such a weapon (and develop a greater respect for his mas-
ter). Give up the only horn of blasting the party has? Not
very likely at all.
It is reasonable to assume that if the player characters
aren’t giving up their goods, neither are any nonplayer char-
acters. And if adventurers aren’t selling their finds, then
there isn’t enough trade in magical items to sustain such a
business.
Even if the characters do occasionally sell a magical item,
setting up a magic shop is not a good idea. Where is the
sense of adventure in going into a store and buying a sword
+1? Haggling over the price of a wand? Player characters
should feel like adventurers, not merchants or greengrocers.
Consider this as well: If a wizard or priest can buy any item
he needs, why should he waste time attempting to make the
item himself? Magical item research is an important role-play-
ing element in the game, and opening a magic emporium kills
it. There is a far different sense of pride on the player’s part
when using a wand his character has made, or found after
perilous adventure, as opposed to one he just bought.
Finally, buying and trading magic presumes a large num-
ber of magical items in the society. This lessens the DM’s
control over the whole business. Logically-minded players will
point out the inconsistency of a well-stocked magic shop in a
campaign otherwise sparse in such rewards.

elsewhere it also talks about how the DM might want to make potions of healing readily available (pg120). It talks at length about pros

& cons to consider with a world that has rare vrs common magic items making it even more complicated to pinpoint a specific stance. I'd summarize it with make them as common as needed for fun without going overboard & take every opportunity you can to use working with players crafting magic items to justify cool adventures.

Based on the above, it seems to me to be pretty much a gamist construct based on the assumed motivations and preferences of the players (more so than the characters) and generalizing them to the rest of the game world society. In addition, it assumes one particular DM mindset as well. It as much as admits that real-world economics don't factor into it.

 

[tetrasodium]

Again, the logical fallacy here seems to be: if some magic items (for example, potions of healing) are available for sale, any and all magic items (for example, +3 weapons or holy avengers) must be available for sale.

And the next quote explains why the D&D economics of no magic item shops doesn't make sense.


Based on the above, it seems to me to be pretty much a gamist construct based on the assumed motivations and preferences of the players (more so than the characters) and generalizing them to the rest of the game world society. In addition, it assumes one particular DM mindset as well. It as much as admits that real-world economics don't factor into it.

Not really. I stopped the quote there but it goes on for a couple pages about tangential things to consider. The 2e dmg really was a very different beast, a good bit of it still applies even today. There are plenty of areas where it talks about buying components for crafting. At some semirelated point it even talks about human nature and motivation

 

[KYRON45]

Again, the logical fallacy here seems to be: if some magic items (for example, potions of healing) are available for sale, any and all magic items (for example, +3 weapons or holy avengers) must be available for sale.

And the next quote explains why the D&D economics of no magic item shops doesn't make sense.


Based on the above, it seems to me to be pretty much a gamist construct based on the assumed motivations and preferences of the players (more so than the characters) and generalizing them to the rest of the game world society. In addition, it assumes one particular DM mindset as well. It as much as admits that real-world economics don't factor into it.

"isms are bad"...Ferris Bueller.

 

[KYRON45]

Marginal utility is the term you're looking for. It's like is it worth it to spend $10k on a crap car or $30k for a solid car? Generally the $30k car is a better choice from maintenance, performance, and experience. Is it worth going to a $90k luxury car? Not for most people. They'd spend that extra money on other things, like a home or a second car. There's a lot of marginal utility to most families to having 2 or 3 vehicles.

How about a $500k supercar? No, only people with money to burn go for that nonsense.

So in 3e, which had an official price guide for magic items, one +3 weapon cost 18,000gp, which is enough to buy 9 +1 weapons (2,000gp ea). Or 450x +1 arrows (40gp ea). Given that magic weapons are needed to injure some creatures, having more weapons in more hands is a better choice

Or to break it down further, a noble could buy one +3 weapon, or equip 4 bodyguards with a +1 weapon (2,000gp), +1 armor (1,000gp) and +1 shields (1,00gp) and still have ~2,000gp to spend on potions. That's a much more beneficial boost than one person with a +3 sword...unless that one person gets many attacks, like a high level adventurer.

And from a simple "hit better" standpoint, Masterwork weapons only cost 300gp and provide a similar combat boost to a magic +1 weapon. You could buy 60x masterwork swords for bows) for that single +3 sword, which militarily is a significant increase in performance. Or maybe you just hire & equip another unit of troops.

Although if you have a cadre of casters, scrolls of Magic Weapon spells are an inexpensive way to have a boost on demand. And it's super funny as a gm when priests use those scrolls on barrels of arrows so every archer in a squad gets a magic arrow for a volley of "monk go home! Or even better, don't!"

So that's why no squads with +3 weapons even if they were available. It'd be a silly waste. Like buying a social media site just to make a point and then lose $Billions. Sure, someone could afford it, but they'd have to be a giant galaxy-brained man-child convinced of their infallibility. Never happen in real life.

I was just saying I think fantasy economies are silly. Usually as a gamer, my biggest concern is; will everyone be able to make it tonight?

 

[Maxperson]

And the next quote explains why the D&D economics of no magic item shops doesn't make sense.

That isn't true. It says that D&D economics isn't the same as 20th century economics, though why they didn't say 21st century economics...

The D&D world doesn't have the numbers of people, goods that we have here in the real world, distribution networks, information networks, etc. to pull together a magic item shop in the same way that a 21st century merchant can pull together a shop that sells rare and expensive goods.

Based on the above, it seems to me to be pretty much a gamist construct based on the assumed motivations and preferences of the players (more so than the characters) and generalizing them to the rest of the game world society. In addition, it assumes one particular DM mindset as well. It as much as admits that real-world economics don't factor into it.

I mean, the entire section says player characters and not players, so where are you getting "players(more so than characters)? In my experience PCs don't like to see many magic items. Even the ones that are of highly limited use.

Fighter: "Okay. We have this instant well that we can toss down on the ground anywhere and draw fresh water from it, then pick it back up again. We should keep it just in case we are ever in a situation where we are out of water, the cleric is somehow unable to create more, and we are dying of thirst."

Rogue: "That's very, VERY unlikely to happen. I'd like to have it, though, for personal reasons."

Wizard: "Might as well give it to the rogue. We'll never hear the end of it if we don't."

Fighter: "Fine. Here you go rogue."

Rogue to himself: "This is going to make body disposal so much easier!!!"

It doesn't make sense for the fantasy economy of most settings to have magic item shops. Magic items are not common enough to sustain them and the few that do exist generally don't get sold. They become family heirlooms.

Now in a setting like Glantri or Eberron where magic is common as spit, and just as interesting as spit because of that commonality, magic item shops could make sense.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Magic items are not common enough to sustain them and the few that do exist generally don't get sold.

Not if you build a better, mor fantastic world.

 

[Voadam]

Gygax's 1e Temple of Elemental Evil in the village of Nulb has Mother Screng's Herb Shop "The shop has almost every known herb and spice, and even 3 jars of Keoghtom's ointment which Mother Screng sells to any adventurers of Good alignment who are in real need of the magic salve, after having proved themselves in expeditions to the Temple."

It is too bad we never got Gygax's detailed out Greyhawk to see an example of his vision of availability in a city. The 2e City of Greyhawk boxed set by Carl Sargent and Rik Rose is from well after Gygax was out of the picture. In the 2e version there is a Guild of Wizardry in the city and:

"The guild also accepts commissions for the production of customized magical items (they are currently working on thieves tools of opening for Org Nenshen, master of the Thieves' Guild)."

Further:

"Guildmembers wishing to sell (donate) or purchase either magical items or spell components will be directed to Kondradis Bubka. the person in charge of administering and recording such transactions."

and

"Kondradis will ordinarily pay no more than 75% of the standard price for a magical item, or 85% if buying from a member of the Guild of Wizardry. He takes a further 5% off his best offer for any charged item, due to the inherent uncertainty of knowing how many charges are present in the item (and the standard price should be adjusted for the number of charges present in any event). Kondradis will barter magical items (paying in kind) at this percentage, but anyone who wants to make an outright purchase will pay at least 115% of the standard price, (110% for a guild member). The DM is advised to be very careful about selling magical items. Minor items such as potions of healing and the like, and scrolls of spells of levels 1-3, are fairly readily available. Permanent items are rarely sold, almost always being retained for use in bartering for items the Guild of Wizardry wants for itself."

"Word has gotten around that if one wants a potion, Greyhawk is the place to get it"

2e did not have gp value for magic items the way 1e and 3e do, just xp ones so there is a little advice to make the cost based on the xp value so that similar xp items have similar costs but that the exact xp to gp ratio should vary based on the individual campaign's economy.

 

[FrogReaver]

instead they would find Frogreaver, a +1, +1 defending sword that gave +10 to jump and balance checks. Instead of magic items being minor and common, they were suddenly rare and much cooler.

I see what you did there

 

[Maxperson]

I see what you did there

LOL I almost tagged you, but didn't just to see if you'd ever come across it on your own.