Worldwide Europe - Are People Doing This?

[Mad Mac]

Eh, I have no objection to non-masterwork Katana's. No matter how good or bad you think Katana's are in general, I'm quite sure there was more than one Lazy McSlackersmith-san selling crummy swords to non-discerning buyers.

But really, lets not hijack the thread. Everyone who's ever ventured unto the internet has probably already gotten involved in 5 katana threads too many.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Because there were huge differences between the expectations of a Samurai and a European courtly knight.

Roll out the stereotypes!

Stereotype, schmereotype- the expectations WERE different. Were there exceptions? Of course. I could point to several European knights who were as famed for their linguistic skills as their swordwork- but they were quite unusual.

Finally, the monk might not be European, but it certainly is D&D. From Balto to the Scarlet Brotherhood, monks have historically been part of the game. I believe it is in the PH for that reason.

And DMs have been excising them from campaigns since 1978 (its one of the reasons my first PC was a Fighter).

If it shatters more easily than a longsword, maybe it isn't actually better.

That's kind of an apples and oranges comparison. The European longsword was
designed to be flexible and take punishment, the katana was designed to be hard and hold a keen edge. Each design had its strengths and weaknesses- tradeoffs due to metallurgy, in this case.

So, not better, nor worse, just different.

 

[genshou]

Eh, I have no objection to non-masterwork Katana's. No matter how good or bad you think Katana's are in general, I'm quite sure there was more than one Lazy McSlackersmith-san selling crummy swords to non-discerning buyers.

I don't think that happened very often in Japan, since swords were so rare to begin with. But, I can certainly see it happening in a world where a katana smith might travel (teleport) over to yon European kingdom and find out about good-quality base metal. He might start to get lazy with his smithing techniques, in order to make swords at a competitive speed.

But really, lets not hijack the thread. Everyone who's ever ventured unto the internet has probably already gotten involved in 5 katana threads too many.

*points at self* Eight.

 

[Dinkeldog]

If this thread is too survive, everyone really needs to make sure that they keep their tone civil, and in particular try not to ascribe motive to other posters.

 

[genshou]

If this thread is too survive, everyone really needs to make sure that they keep their tone civil, and in particular try not to ascribe motive to other posters.

Understood, Master Sniper! If anyone posts anything that makes me that mad again, I'll just put them on my ignore list and not respond at all, in order to avoid bad blood.

 

[Nyaricus]

I'm mighty fine Ny, have fun at work, eh?

It was so dead; long weeekend + a Sunday shift (being right in the middle of said long weekend) equals no one coming to get gas. Oh well

The Bruiser looks cool (I can't get the table to work, tho). Luckily, I'm work on an "asian" campaign right now anyway, so very little stress about monk.
</derail>

The table doesn't work, but the class is indeed cool One of the best EN World HR classes, IMO.

On that note, though. Despite the fact that I'm running an "oriental" campaign setting next, I'm still resistant to having both Samurai and Ninja in my game. I'm using altered Wu Jen and Shamans, though. Monks, too (they are "Northerners" from the "Chinese" empire the Coalition pays fealty to). Most monks are seen as something a bit sinister for this reason.

It seems strange that as creative as I and my players are, it is so hard to divorce Samurai and Ninja from their Japanese roots (there is no "Japanese" analogue in this campaign setting).
It's partly due to the design of the setting it would seem, but I wrote it that way.

Well, if there is no Japanese analogue, then don't include them. I don't have monks in my campaigns for the same reasons.

Can I get an illustration of where this explanation actually exists for the monk?

"Dotted across the landscape there are monasteries - small, walled cloisters inhabited by monks who personal perfect through actiosn as well as contemplation"

It's the first line of the monk class and implies an obviously, ahem, "well-travelled" tradtion of shaolin monks. And they aren't getting anywhere near my campaigns!

What, genshou and Nyaricus disagreeing on something? I knew it was too good to last

The honeymoon is over

You certainly have a point there, and quite a valid one, in fact. I would like to point out a few things that make me disagree, however. First of all, the Benedictine monks can easily exist in a D&D setting. They would have the Expert NPC class. Second, while the core rules do force you to include a monastery or two in your kingdom, remember that Monk is a PC class, and therefore there are very few of them in the kingdom, and very few monasteries need to exist for a PC class when new members of PC classes spring up so rarely, right? You could possibly even get away with not having any monasteries in a given kingdom, and have the monks living in that kingdom travel from elsewhere and settle there for whatever reason.

Oh, I completely agree that benedictine monks could fit in, that isn;t the problem (heck, the first campaign I ran had an abandoned Monastery with a hill giant and a few orcs in it ) But what I am saying is where there should be one type of monastery, there is another which is a square peg trying to fit in a triangular hole. This isn't even a situation where one might be able to make it fit in, if badly. It just doesn't fit.

Magic has everything to do with it! The dissemination of ideas is the one thing that would be most heavily influenced by the alterations standard D&D would make to a culture. There are those in every society who seek out a life of peaceful contemplation, as well as training in the martial arts. Just look at all the yoga and/or self-defense classes people in the US take (not sure how widespread these things are in other cultures; I'd appreciate some chiming in). Through the influence of magic and the existence of Monks in a foreign culture to begin with, possessing so many abilities that would aid them in long journeys, I don't see it difficult at all to swallow some of them travelling to a Euro-centric region of the world and wanting to set up a monastery to enlighten their fellow men. Psion aids me in explaining:

It really isn't much of a stretch at all.

Genshou, there are several problems in that. The USA is a modern, melding-pot country. It's very different than what medieval europe would be like. Self defense? Call upon your lord to rally up his men-at-arms to do battle. Peaceful contemplation? That wasn't really on the plate for 90% of europe population, don't you think? I doubt the other 10% aren't monks, either.

Magic is definitly a large factor in D&D cultures, but I don't necessarily think D&D gets it "right". With clerics being able to cast all these wonderful spells, but with all these terrible beasties around, the world would be a very different place if these things are true; that's why these things are the exception rather than the rule. I guess, since you play the heroes in D&D, it's hard to see the forest for the trees - the fact that you are the exception rather than the rule.

 

[fusangite]

This is, I think, where our opinions are going to seriously differ. The technology available in standard D&D is more evocative of the Middle Ages rather than the Bronze Age or the Dark Ages.

Well, as the "Dark Ages" refer to the first half of the Middle Ages, I don't think we're too far apart here.

Of course, what kind of culture develops and such is dependent on the setting but I just can't imagine crossbows, Welsh longbows, and full plate in a world with a "Bronze Age feel".

Yep. One has to delete some stuff from the equipment list or make it really hard to find. But I'm not suggesting that my way of playing is what the RAW expects; given the sample settings, it's pretty clear that D&D anticipates your kind of world as the default. However, the rules also make it pretty damned easy to accommodate the kind I like.

The modern idea of "planet=world" is mostly due to the fact that there are no longer "edges" on our maps–the world has been explored now, and there's nowhere left to unknown regions.

That's certainly one of the factors. Still, I think some of the best fantasy worlds I have read are ones that resolutely resist the temptation to do this. Ursula Leguin's Earthsea is a world created after we saw the earth from space and remains a very compelling setting. So, clearly, technological factors have not wholly overwhelmed our capacity to think about worlds in smaller terms.

I've delved into determining the availability and accessability of magic in standard D&D possibly more than anyone else on this forum,

Have you tracked just how many prominent game designers post to this forum. Who exactly do you think you are?

and I do understand that even with teleportation magic available, it's not going to cause the cultures to mix as much as simple things like sailing technology did in our own world. But that cross-cultural bleed of ideas is still going to occur to a noteworthy extent.

I agree that DMG demographics have to be fiddled-with considerably to allow geographically isolated areas to maintian their isolation the way the game is structured.

Fortunately I don't have to worry about this because I'm not talking about a world that is objectively earth-sized with areas off the map that people don't interact with. I'm talking about Earthsea-sized worlds. How does teleportation make it harder to sustain a world that is smaller and flatter as a matter of construction?

With D&D the way that it is, I don't imagine "Circle-T" maps in the way that they existed in the real world. When the king's royal advisor can use divination and scrying to help fill in the blank areas on the map, I imagine a world more like Faerûn, where adventurers in the Dalelands are fairly likely to have heard of Calimshan, can get more information about it from a bard travelling through Ashabenford, and can realistically plan to go there someday.

Yep. But there is no requirement for worlds to be either that big or that heterogeneous; that's simply a matter of taste.

 

[genshou]

Have you tracked just how many prominent game designers post to this forum. Who exactly do you think you are?

A guy who spends as much time piddling over details like these as most game designers do putting everything into their products. I'm being entirely serious here. I don't think most people have seriously worked on a dedicated study of it like I have. One of these days I'll get organized and get my formal thesis finished on the subject.

It's clear that I have way too much free time, naturally.

I'm not responding in depth to the rest of your post, but that's not because there's nothing of value in there. You've just said plenty and I have nothing to say in response, at least right now. Your points were too good to argue, and I've nothing to add to them either.

 

[genshou]

The honeymoon is over

You're just like your mother! I want out.

Oh, I completely agree that benedictine monks could fit in, that isn;t the problem (heck, the first campaign I ran had an abandoned Monastery with a hill giant and a few orcs in it ) But what I am saying is where there should be one type of monastery, there is another which is a square peg trying to fit in a triangular hole. This isn't even a situation where one might be able to make it fit in, if badly. It just doesn't fit.

Oh, I definitely don't disagree that it doesn't fit. No argument there. I guess all folks vary in how much they're willing to work with that not-fitting to fix the problem. I like Monks, so I'll go pretty far.

Genshou, there are several problems in that. The USA is a modern, melding-pot country. It's very different than what medieval europe would be like. Self defense? Call upon your lord to rally up his men-at-arms to do battle. Peaceful contemplation? That wasn't really on the plate for 90% of europe population, don't you think? I doubt the other 10% aren't monks, either.

Hmm, your right. What I posted does imply that a bit. Perhaps I should clarify.

While in the US we have more free time and freedom in general, I just mean that the fact that these things have become so popular is an indication that a lot of people seek such things out. Humans aren't like animals; they often need some kind of religion or spiritual stuff in general to fill a void in their lives that occurs as a result of their self-awareness. Meditation and deep self-reflection is one way people fill that void. Among members of the aristocracy in a D&D setting (which is where I think the majority of PC-classed individuals would come from), training in a monastery would be an easier thing to do, especially since the King won't shut it down if they're only teaching the nobility how to fight without weapons. Teaching peasants? That might be a problem.

I like to think of a monastery as being like a Fighter's training camp or Wizard's school. It's not your ordinary warrior's training, and it's also not very common. When I think of monasteries dotted across the landscape, I like to think of that as meaning one or two per kingdom, since that makes more sense with standard D&D's demographics, and how long it takes to train as a Monk. Those 300 monks who live within the kingdom's borders? Retired adventurers or just people who learned how to fight pretty well, but settled down in the kingdom for whatever reason and now live quiet lives amongst the rest of humanity. Maybe the local high-level Monk teaches a yoga class.

Magic is definitly a large factor in D&D cultures, but I don't necessarily think D&D gets it "right". With clerics being able to cast all these wonderful spells, but with all these terrible beasties around, the world would be a very different place if these things are true; that's why these things are the exception rather than the rule. I guess, since you play the heroes in D&D, it's hard to see the forest for the trees - the fact that you are the exception rather than the rule.

Can I hug you? And put that in my sig? That illustrates one of the things I bring up most in discussions about magic and its effects on D&D worlds as a whole. The PCs can't see the forest for the trees, and that gives the players misconceptions.

But please, let's not threadjack too much about the availability of D&D magic, etc. and get back to Oriental stuff. We're still getting going after the katana threadjack.

 

[Nyaricus]

You're just like your mother! I want out.

LMFAO! That gets better every time I read it

Oh, I definitely don't disagree that it doesn't fit. No argument there. I guess all folks vary in how much they're willing to work with that not-fitting to fix the problem. I like Monks, so I'll go pretty far.

Well, I don't mind them either - heck, if they were to get ninja-kicked back into OA where they belong I'd be happier and more willing to give them a more seriously lookover; however they are such a black eye right now that I just don't feel the need to.

Hmm, your right. What I posted does imply that a bit. Perhaps I should clarify.

While in the US we have more free time and freedom in general, I just mean that the fact that these things have become so popular is an indication that a lot of people seek such things out. Humans aren't like animals; they often need some kind of religion or spiritual stuff in general to fill a void in their lives that occurs as a result of their self-awareness. Meditation and deep self-reflection is one way people fill that void. Among members of the aristocracy in a D&D setting (which is where I think the majority of PC-classed individuals would come from), training in a monastery would be an easier thing to do, especially since the King won't shut it down if they're only teaching the nobility how to fight without weapons. Teaching peasants? That might be a problem.

I like to think of a monastery as being like a Fighter's training camp or Wizard's school. It's not your ordinary warrior's training, and it's also not very common. When I think of monasteries dotted across the landscape, I like to think of that as meaning one or two per kingdom, since that makes more sense with standard D&D's demographics, and how long it takes to train as a Monk. Those 300 monks who live within the kingdom's borders? Retired adventurers or just people who learned how to fight pretty well, but settled down in the kingdom for whatever reason and now live quiet lives amongst the rest of humanity. Maybe the local high-level Monk teaches a yoga class.

I understadn what you are getting at, and tend to agree as well with the rationale, except that it still implies too much cultural intergration rather than influence. Influence? It happens. Intergration? I got weird looks when I went out with a spanish chick, 'cuase she had darker skin than me. No, I don't think medieval europe had much in the way of intergration.

Can I hug you? And put that in my sig? That illustrates one of the things I bring up most in discussions about magic and its effects on D&D worlds as a whole. The PCs can't see the forest for the trees, and that gives the players misconceptions.

*hugs back* sure dude, put it in your sig. To be honest, I was thinking Marilyn Manson lyrics while typing that, since it fit so well in my line of thought