Worldwide Europe - Are People Doing This?

[genshou]

I understadn what you are getting at, and tend to agree as well with the rationale, except that it still implies too much cultural intergration rather than influence. Influence? It happens. Intergration? I got weird looks when I went out with a spanish chick, 'cuase she had darker skin than me. No, I don't think medieval europe had much in the way of intergration.

I think the viewpoint that a D&D medieval kingdom should be as isolationist and elitist as its real-world counterpart doesn't work with all the stuff that D&D adds in. But, I'm not sure if this helps validify cultural integration of monks, or just gets people to not give funny looks to the adventurers *thinks of Baldur's Gate II, wandering down the streets of Athkatla decked out in armour, with a million spell effects making all kinds of nifty glowy things on the characters*

 

[Nyaricus]

I think the viewpoint that a D&D medieval kingdom should be as isolationist and elitist as its real-world counterpart doesn't work with all the stuff that D&D adds in. But, I'm not sure if this helps validify cultural integration of monks, or just gets people to not give funny looks to the adventurers *thinks of Baldur's Gate II, wandering down the streets of Athkatla decked out in armour, with a million spell effects making all kinds of nifty glowy things on the characters*

No, it shouldn't be as elitist or isolationist as it's RL counterpart, but there are reasons why stuff like whizz-bang magical effect are banned in most cities, right?

Back to the monk: D&D as a game can't, from teh PHB itself, give a reason for the monk classes inclusion into it. It needs a background, a campagin settign to fit in, and D&D in the Core rulebooks are trying to *not* be campaign-specific. Of course, spells and deity names are still in effect from GH's hayday, but who's counting, right?

Monks, straight from the get-go, are the black sheep of the flock.

 

[FireLance]

Back to the monk: D&D as a game can't, from teh PHB itself, give a reason for the monk classes inclusion into it. It needs a background, a campagin settign to fit in, and D&D in the Core rulebooks are trying to *not* be campaign-specific. Of course, spells and deity names are still in effect from GH's hayday, but who's counting, right?

Unfortunately, that's an argument that cuts both ways. If the Core rulebooks are *not* campaign-specific, then the monk has as much right to be there as the bard, the barbarian and the druid. If generic society X has developed traditions of spellcasting entertainers, berserker warriors, and shape-shifting nature priests, why should it be odd that it has also developed the practice of martial arts?

 

[Nyaricus]

Unfortunately, that's an argument that cuts both ways. If the Core rulebooks are *not* campaign-specific, then the monk has as much right to be there as the bard, the barbarian and the druid. If generic society X has developed traditions of spellcasting entertainers, berserker warriors, and shape-shifting nature priests, why should it be odd that it has also developed the practice of martial arts?

That's not being campaign specific, that's the generic assumption of the D&D game being a representation of a medieval psuedo-europe world.

I know that's a REALLY fine line there, but do follow me here: campaign specifics are the names, the places, the people; but the world itself is generally, unless otherwise noted, assumed to be in a medieval psuedo-Europe.

 

[Zapak Vim]

Monks n stuff

well, I havent had tiem to read all the stuff in this thread but I will throw in what I do in my campaign.
Its got two continents (large islands actually), the northern one is a standard medieval european 13th century level of technology and culture (but the roman empire was replaced with a finnish culture empire so finnish mythology is used a lot.), and the southern one is an arabic/egyptian continent, ful of deserts, mummies and all sorts of middle eastern stuff. At one end its got an empire that is based on ancient China if the PCs ever feel like doing that but I havent developed it yet. So, you don't find mummies and other middle eastern monsters in the north, and you dont find elves, dwarfs etc in the south.

As for Monks, well my monks fit into my medieval european culture by putting them where heretics like the cathars and bogomils would have been in real history. So they exist, but are seen as heretics and outlaws by the powers that be, precisely because they dont really fit into the mainstream feudal culture or religion. My Monks refuse to worship the gods, seeing that true divine power comes from within, not from gods, or temples or priests, which not only makes them unpopular with the churches, but fits in well with their class powers.
The Monks travel a lot and in most places they dont have land or monasteries, they are a kind of wandering religious loonie group that doesnt really fit in, and is harassed and supressed by mainstream churches in many places.

Zapak

 

[FireLance]

That's not being campaign specific, that's the generic assumption of the D&D game being a representation of a medieval psuedo-europe world.

I know that's a REALLY fine line there, but do follow me here: campaign specifics are the names, the places, the people; but the world itself is generally, unless otherwise noted, assumed to be in a medieval psuedo-Europe.

Right. I guess the difference is, I see it as a medieval pseudo-Europe and you see it as a medieval pseudo-Europe.

 

[Nyaricus]

Right. I guess the difference is, I see it as a medieval pseudo-Europe and you see it as a medieval pseudo-Europe.

That's one way, I suppose Personally, I see nothing flawed with that deduction.

 

[Nyaricus]

The Monks travel a lot and in most places they dont have land or monasteries, they are a kind of wandering religious loonie group that doesnt really fit in, and is harassed and supressed by mainstream churches in many places.

Zapak

So, Chaotic Monks, eh?

We call for redemption!! Armageddon is upon us!

 

[mhacdebhandia]

but the world itself is generally, unless otherwise noted, assumed to be in a medieval psuedo-Europe.

I, for one, hope fervently that Fourth Edition, when it comes, changes this. More freedom, less blind assumptions.

 

[Sound of Azure]

It was so dead; long weeekend + a Sunday shift (being right in the middle of said long weekend) equals no one coming to get gas. Oh well

That sucks, but a few more dollars in the bank is always nice.

Well, if there is no Japanese analogue, then don't include them. I don't have monks in my campaigns for the same reasons.

Well, yeah. It's partly because there isn't much reason to include them, but also... I completely traumatised my players with my last campaign.

The "black sails", a pseudo-japanese cultural group were essentially the enemy of the PCs, invading their homeland. Since there are a lot of anime fans/japanophiles amongst the group, it came as a shock to them. Those kids are funny sometimes.

Player 1
"Wow, man! Did you see that guy carve up the monk! Cool!!"

Player 2
"Er, that monk was on our side."

Player 3
"Yeah. Samurai rock!!"

Sound of Azure
"....."


For me it's kind of fun to challenge perceptions from time to time like that. I do enforce a table rule in games that include "Oriental" (I hate that word, you know? Like any kind of unreasonable grouping of barely related things...ugh.) elements.
There must be no talking about how fantastic samurai, ninja, katanas, martial arts, or asian philosophy is.
Those things, like talking about the superiority of particular classes, or judgement calls on peoples beliefs are ultimately extremely grating for me. I game to relax and have fun, not have arguments over what is "133+" or whether one thing is better than another.
I don't hate asian things (far from it), but I'm seeing that unless a campaign actually has cultures with analogues and philosophies that approximate eastern things, monks, samurai and ninjas don't easily belong. Not without revision to a more generic state at any rate (IMO, of course).

I like monks a lot, and think they can add a great deal to the game. Perhaps they can stay in the PHB, but I think they (with the samurai, ninja, and to a lesser extent the wu jen and shugenja) should be in the DMG as optional components, together with the other "asian campaign" guidelines there. So, Core, but Optional.

For that matter, I wouldn't mind doing away with pseudo-europe! But since it is so implicit (and nearly everyone I game with has a european background of some sort), I can't see what can be done about it.

just a few thoughts, anyway. Please forgive the rambling ...