Worse than we thought...

Yep.

Like I said, I don't have a problem with the existence of hihg-level commoners in general.

But a 13th level commoner in a thorp of 20-80 just stretches the bounds of what I'd consider a reasonable *random* occurence.

So here's what the distribution would look like in the most extreme case:
1 3rd lv Adept
1 1st lv Aristocrat
1 13th lv Commoner,
2 6th level Commoners,
4 3rd level Commoners
1 9th level Expert,
2 4th level Experts,
4 2nd level Experts,
1 5th level Warrior,
2 2nd level Warriors
1 5th level Barbarian,
2 2nd level Barbarians,
4 1st level Barbarians
1 3rd level Bard,
2 1st level Bards
1 3rd level Cleric,
2 1st level Clerics,
1 16th level Druid,
2 8th level Druids,
4 4th level Druids,
8 2nd level Druids,
16 1st level Druids
1 5th level Fighter,
2 3rd level Fighters,
4 1st level Fighters,
1 5th level Monk,
2 3rd level Monks,
4 1st level Monks
0 Paladins
1 13th level Ranger,
2 6th level Rangers,
4 3rd level Rangers,
8 1st level Rangers
1 5th level Rogue,
2 3rd level Rogues,
4 1st level Rogues
1 1st level Sorceror
1 1st level Wizard
----
101 Leveled inhabitants in a thorp, which is supposed to have a max of 80.

With the exception of Druids and Rangers, the "Old Man" is roughly 2.5 times the level of the next closest PC class. And without giving either of those the magic 5% chance, the commoner would be the single highest leveled character in the entire thorp. BTW, if I don't give them the magic 5%, the thorp will have 0 rangers, a 3rd level and 2 1st level druids.

The distribution is just wrong. I can justify the high-level druids and rangers based on their connection to nature, and dislike of civilization, but for commoners?

And how do I justify Commoners being the *only* epic-level characters in the campaign? And how did the 28th level Commoner manage to live 378 years anyway?
 

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GuardianLurker said:
But a 13th level commoner in a thorp of 20-80 just stretches the bounds of what I'd consider a reasonable *random* occurence.

Considering that it will crop up only in about 1 thorp in every 250 I just don't think it's that bad. After all, there's no law that says that high-level people must move to cities. He's the tough old coot that's been around for ages, and everybody listens to him rather than the Mayor.

I mean, come on, it's not like a 13th level commoner is a superman or anything. He's got a mighty +6 BAB, 34 hit points, 32 skill ranks, and +4 saves all around. The world will not be trembling in front of this guy. Hell, a second level fighter probably wouldn't be trembling in front of this guy.

J
 

drnuncheon said:


Considering that it will crop up only in about 1 thorp in every 250 I just don't think it's that bad. After all, there's no law that says that high-level people must move to cities. He's the tough old coot that's been around for ages, and everybody listens to him rather than the Mayor.

I mean, come on, it's not like a 13th level commoner is a superman or anything. He's got a mighty +6 BAB, 34 hit points, 32 skill ranks, and +4 saves all around. The world will not be trembling in front of this guy. Hell, a second level fighter probably wouldn't be trembling in front of this guy.

J
Particuarly given that (for humans, at least) he'll most likely be venerable, resulting in a -6 to Str, Dex & Con.
 

GuardianLurker said:
But a 13th level commoner in a thorp of 20-80 just stretches the bounds of what I'd consider a reasonable *random* occurence.

Some rules are more stupid than others. Personally, I'd be more worried about the blind kobold, bucket of snails and dual-wielded light lances than epic commoners.

So here's what the distribution would look like in the most extreme case:

... especially since I'm not planning on intentionally taking a stupid rule to even sillier extremes.

The distribution is just wrong. I can justify the high-level druids and rangers based on their connection to nature, and dislike of civilization, but for commoners?

And how do I justify Commoners being the *only* epic-level characters in the campaign? And how did the 28th level Commoner manage to live 378 years anyway?

Clearly all those years without going to the crapper (notice how D&D worlds _never_ have any toilets?) have contributed to his longevity.


Hong "by jove, you may be on to something here!" Ooi
 
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Re

How would you handle commoners in a level-based game with an abstract system of advancement? There are some high level commoners, oh well.

They obviously didn't gain their experience through battle, but no need to go into how they gained their levels anyhow. Even a lvl 20 commoner would be no match for a lvl 10 fighter.
 

Epic farmer.
-His crops can be planted in autumn and they are still ready for harvest before winter.
-His cows produce milk per day over their body weight.
-His sheep can be sheared every day for wool.
-He can tell the weather 95% accurately for the next year.
-He handles the farm all by himself.

:D
 

The mentioned example with a 13th level commoner might be that kind of village that lies to the frontier to the "Shadowlands" or "Dark Forest" or "Plains of Evil" - nobody did care for it (not the king, not some heros), but the people managed to survive - the orc tribes in the region know that farmers can be dangerous, and so, they are now more or less ignored - the villagers might even have earned some respects.

Or an alternative interpretation -
it wasn`t always such a small village - but several goblin raiding partys fought their way through it. The noble heros (if there were some at all) that attempted to stand against the forced gave their life, but thanks to their sacrifice some of the average people survived, and haven seen the slaughters, maybe even fighting some of the attackers, allowed them to gain experience. Now they live in the ruins, attempting to rebuild their settlement - or they build up a new village outside.

High Level npcs allow for storytelling - they don`t come from thin air...

Mustrum Ridcully
 

Expeditious Retreat Press has published something far more valuable than these quick'n'dirty rules. Because the guidelines in the DMG are quick'n'dirty rules, not anything realistic.

Remember also the economic rule (page 137). Your thorp (let say 50 habitants) has 200 gp worth of anything. You could buy 20 000 days of firewood in one. You could also get 25 donkeys (one for 2 inhabitants). And, assuming a chicken cost 1 cp, 20 000 chicken. 20 000 rabbits also. A large city (25 000 habs) could have 50 000 000 caltrops, 5 000 000 portable rams, 50 000 waterclocks (2 per citizen), 250 000 heavy warhorse (10 per habitants), 2 000 warships, 50 000 simple house (2 per person), 10 000 grand house, 500 mansions, 1 000 towers, 333 keeps, 100 castles, 50 huge castle, and 1 000 moats with bridges.

You would also get 25 000 000 oars to maneuvers the 1 000 000 rowboats, the 1 666 galleys, and the 5 000 longships.

If that makes any sense, feel free to use these rules as anything else that quick'n'dirty guidelines. Better yet, build the world around these premise, make the world fit the rule rather than the reverse !
 

Gez said:
Expeditious Retreat Press has published something far more valuable than these quick'n'dirty rules. Because the guidelines in the DMG are quick'n'dirty rules, not anything realistic.

Remember also the economic rule (page 137). Your thorp (let say 50 habitants) has 200 gp worth of anything. You could buy 20 000 days of firewood in one. You could also get 25 donkeys (one for 2 inhabitants). And, assuming a chicken cost 1 cp, 20 000 chicken. 20 000 rabbits also. A large city (25 000 habs) could have 50 000 000 caltrops, 5 000 000 portable rams, 50 000 waterclocks (2 per citizen), 250 000 heavy warhorse (10 per habitants), 2 000 warships, 50 000 simple house (2 per person), 10 000 grand house, 500 mansions, 1 000 towers, 333 keeps, 100 castles, 50 huge castle, and 1 000 moats with bridges.

You would also get 25 000 000 oars to maneuvers the 1 000 000 rowboats, the 1 666 galleys, and the 5 000 longships.

If that makes any sense, feel free to use these rules as anything else that quick'n'dirty guidelines. Better yet, build the world around these premise, make the world fit the rule rather than the reverse !

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the amount of cash you're referring to the "amount of ready cash" (DMG 137) in the community? It's not that the thorp has 200 gp of firewood + 200 gp of donkeys + 200 gp of chickens, etc., but that all of its available wealth combined comes to 200 gp. Sure, it's quick and dirty, but it's not as ludicrous as you're making it sound.
 

As far as commoner levels go, I assume that children (under 10) are basically level 1 commoners. From 10 - around 20 years old they are level 2. From 20 - around 25 they would be about level 3. After that they can be anything from level 3 on up. This means the typical adult farmer is about level 3. He has on average 6 or 7 hit points. Seems reasonable to me. They could survive an attack from most mundane animals (badger, dog, wolf, etc.) a fair amount of the time, and still be able to group together to take out an ogre or bear, etc. fairly compentantly. So a 50 year old commoner 10 or 13 is definately not out of the question as the leader of a small community. Someone has to be getting role-playing XP:D
 

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