Worse than we thought...

[GuardianLurker]

I for one am willing to admit that the guidelines for determining the number of people in a settlement of x level of x class, as they are written in the DMG, are crap.

I think that's what you're wanting, right, affirmation of your opinion that the D&D universe can't possibly exist the way the DMG says?

*Sniff* Finally, someone who truly understands... *Sniff*

It was indeed a semi-rant. I say semi-, because I was also hoping that someone could have pointed me to alternative demographics.

And MMS, unhappily, while it is an *incredible* resource otherwise, still uses the default demographics that I've been complaining about.

So that's why I think there would be a good number of high-level commoners compared to adventuring classes. Sheer numbers, uninfluenced by DMG silliness.

Right, and I'd really like to talk about that, so... House Rules!

 

[jeffhartsell]

City generator in Excel

Quote by: GuardianLurker

101 Leveled inhabitants in a thorp, which is supposed to have a max of 80.

Attached is the city maker EXCEL spreadsheet I put together to create the below example...

A Thorp created using the DMG would look like this:

Type Thorp
Pop. 52
GP limit 40
Wealth $104
Power Center 1 Nonstandard
Power Center 2 None
Power Center 3 None
Power Center 4 None
Sheriff Highest-level warrior
# Lvl 1+ PCs 13
# Lvl 2+ NPCs 14

Remaining Pop. 25
Adept lvl 1 1
Aristocrat lvl 1 0
Commoner lvl 1 23
Expert lvl 1 0
Warrior lvl 1 1
Full-time guards 0
Local militia 2 (from the pop. at large, probably a warrior. These are not additional members of the pop. listed above.)

Adept: 0
Aristocrat: One 2nd level
Commoner: One 8th, 2x 4th, 4x 2nd
Expert: One 5th, 2x 2nd
Warrior: One 4th, 2x 2nd

Barbarians: One 1st level
Bards: One 2nd, 2x 1st
Clerics: One 2nd, 2x 1st
Druids: 0
Fighters: One 2nd, 2x 1st
Monks: 0
Paladins: 0
Rangers: 0
Rogues: One 3rd, 2x 1st
Sorcerers: 0
Wizards: 0

 

[MerakSpielman]

Hmmm. It doesn't seem right to me to have a small, backwoods thorp with 3 clerics, 3 bards, 3 fighters, and 3 rogues.
Wait.... that's 12 people with PHB classes.
Then I count 30 commoners. that makes 42 people.
4 level 1 NPC classes... 48 total
7 higher than level 1 NPC classes... total 55.
I didn't count the militiamen, assuming they were commoners who picked up spears when the thorp is attacked, but if they are separate people, the population reaches 57.

Even so, 55 is higher than the 52 the generator says the population is.

With the adept, they have 7 different spellcasters. How do they afford them all? Remember the prices for purchasing the castings of spells. The town as a whole only has 100gp. Why do those bards stick around? I think that, at most, the town would have a single, low level cleric.
What do the rogues do for a living? There's not much to steal. Do they live as commoners? Why don't they have a commoner level?

I think this example is a good case study in why the DMG rules are off.

 

[drnuncheon]

Hmmm. It doesn't seem right to me to have a small, backwoods thorp with 3 clerics, 3 bards, 3 fighters, and 3 rogues.
Wait.... that's 12 people with PHB classes.
Then I count 30 commoners. that makes 42 people.
4 level 1 NPC classes... 48 total
7 higher than level 1 NPC classes... total 55.

Even so, 55 is higher than the 52 the generator says the population is.

That's probably because the person who made the generator forgot that 1st level NPC-class characters are a special case - they are divided up among the remainder of the population according to the percentages given (even if 1 is what you roll as the highest level for the class).

With the adept, they have 7 different spellcasters. How do they afford them all? Remember the prices for purchasing the castings of spells. The town as a whole only has 100gp. Why do those bards stick around? I think that, at most, the town would have a single, low level cleric.

Just because someone has a wizard or sorcerer level does not mean that they make their money that way. Also, the prices in the DMG are as much of a guideline as the town generation rules.

Perhaps the townfolk barter. Perhaps the wizards are kindhearted and enjoy helping their fellow man. Perhaps an adventurer passes through every so often and buys a spell or a potion or two and that sets them up with enough money to live comfortably until the next one comes along.

The generators in the DMG are there to give you ideas, not to do all the work for you. If you're looking at the results and saying "that's not what I wanted" then don't bother using the generator.

On the other hand, if you're using the generator, engage your imagination. Instead of saying "no thorp should have all these spellcasters" say "I wonder why this thorp has so many spellcasters? Maybe there's something special here."

What do the rogues do for a living? There's not much to steal.

#$<ing second edition mentality. This bugs me almost as much as people talking about 'rouges'.

Rogues are not always thieves. Rogues are people who live by their wits. They are the 'skilled PC class'. They can be engineers, spies, scouts, trappers, locksmiths, miners, sailors, performers, or any number of things besides a thief. If you're stuck in rogue=thief then you're doing yourself and the class an enormous disservice.

Sorry. Sore spot.

J

 

[Hypersmurf]

Rogues are not always thieves. Rogues are people who live by their wits. They are the 'skilled PC class'. They can be engineers, spies, scouts, trappers, locksmiths, miners, sailors, performers, or any number of things besides a thief. If you're stuck in rogue=thief then you're doing yourself and the class an enormous disservice.

I've always thought Rogues are the best class to use to build policemen. Warriors for your guards, Rogues for your detectives. Paladin/Rogues for your elite detectives.

-Hyp.

 

[MerakSpielman]

snip!

#$<ing second edition mentality. This bugs me almost as much as people talking about 'rouges'.

snip!

Sorry. Sore spot.

Well, there's not a lot for rouges to steal, either.

I'm sorry, does it hurt when I poke that spot?

Sorry, couldn't help it.

-----

Everybody says that if we don't like it, don't do it the way the book recommends - the "if you don't like it, house rule it" argument, which I find very unsatisfying. If we all did that, there would be nothing to argue about on message boards.

Clearly the DMG intended their rules to represent the Way Things Are in a typical D&D town. I disagree.

 

[Keith]

"What do the rogues do for a living?"

This seems to be kind of the point with the whole “too many PC-types around”. For me, because they are not PCs but NPCs, I assume that much of the reason the Clerics, for example, have risen in level is from actually functioning in the community as a healer and diviner (etc.). I don’t imagine that all of those people are earning their living busting heads like actual PCs; they represent more conventional community members to me. Some of those people have acquired skill sets analogous to PC Rogues- but they may in fact be jewelers, herders, miners…anything, really. Likewise with a low level Arcane caster, to use another example; maybe they are engaged in scholarly research in the area, or perhaps they work as a scribe.

If you think of all those classed people as just citizens who have picked up some interesting and practical skills in the course of a relatively conventional life, it can all sort of fall together I think. I don’t picture a lot of people in wizard outfits and full armor wandering around a small town looking for a ruin to explore. I just imagine blacksmiths, scholars, local priests- OK, I am just rambling.

Cheers.

 

[Gez]

Re:

And MMS, unhappily, while it is an *incredible* resource otherwise, still uses the default demographics that I've been complaining about.

Oh ?

That's really disappointing...

 

[GuardianLurker]

For those of you still listening...

I and some others are discussing/building a better demographic system over in House Rules (thus my earlier comment).

You can find the thread here:
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43109

 

[hong]

Everybody says that if we don't like it, don't do it the way the book recommends - the "if you don't like it, house rule it" argument, which I find very unsatisfying. If we all did that, there would be nothing to argue about on message boards.

And if that happens, the terrorists have won.