Worse than we thought...
- Thread starter GuardianLurker
- Start date
FreeTheSlaves
Adventurer
Given that the npc classes make up the vast bulk of the populations and create the societies in which they thrive I am quite happy to see their levels getting up there.
The average 1st level commoner is not average. Yup, this commoner is actually a child or adolescent in my book. Adults are typically 2nd level+ and usually multi-classed with warrior or expert for higher individuals.
I may not be in the mainstream but it never made sense that people would be so puny in such a fierce world. That and 10th level+ npc classed characters get progressively weaker than the pcs in real power terms.
The average 1st level commoner is not average. Yup, this commoner is actually a child or adolescent in my book. Adults are typically 2nd level+ and usually multi-classed with warrior or expert for higher individuals.
I may not be in the mainstream but it never made sense that people would be so puny in such a fierce world. That and 10th level+ npc classed characters get progressively weaker than the pcs in real power terms.
WizarDru
Adventurer
Steverooo said:
That would be Farmer Maggot, he of the nasty dogs, who stared down a Nazgul and told him to shove off.
In Fellowship, he specifically is mentioned as being somewhat belligerent towards Merry and Pippin because they're constantly nipping at his crops, but once you get past his gruff exterior, he's a nice old codger, taking the four hobbits in for the night between Hobbiton and the Buckleberry Ferry. Most likely, he's a good example of a high-level commoner, with Iron Will as a feat.I have to admit -- whether it's silly or not -- I like the idea of a high level commoner.
He's the crusty old coot who has seen it all, done it all, and lived to tell the (tall) tales.
He's wicked quick with that blade (two attacks per round!) and can whittle up a figurine fit for the king's own palace. His crops are always straight and true. He hunts for meat to help out his friends down at the local inn. And if you're lucky, he'll stay -- just for one drink -- and talk about some of the things he's seen along the way.
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From a logical standpoint... somebody has to live in the most outlying farm, dealing with wolves, orcish raiders, and bizarre monsters from the woods.
Sure, most of them will die, but every once in a while... he's the one that rolled the natural 20s when he needed them, stabilized at -9 after killing some orcs, and managed to survive the plague that wiped out so many.
Now show him some respect, you young pup! Maybe someday you'll be HALF the man he is.
He's the crusty old coot who has seen it all, done it all, and lived to tell the (tall) tales.
He's wicked quick with that blade (two attacks per round!) and can whittle up a figurine fit for the king's own palace. His crops are always straight and true. He hunts for meat to help out his friends down at the local inn. And if you're lucky, he'll stay -- just for one drink -- and talk about some of the things he's seen along the way.
----------------------------
From a logical standpoint... somebody has to live in the most outlying farm, dealing with wolves, orcish raiders, and bizarre monsters from the woods.
Sure, most of them will die, but every once in a while... he's the one that rolled the natural 20s when he needed them, stabilized at -9 after killing some orcs, and managed to survive the plague that wiped out so many.
Now show him some respect, you young pup! Maybe someday you'll be HALF the man he is.
Spatzimaus
First Post
It's a strange thing, so here's how I rationalize it:
You're not ACTUALLY getting a 20th-level Commoner. Maybe you're getting a group of Commoners with the EL of a 20th-level Commoner. Using the +2-for-doubling rules, that means you could trade in that 20th-level Commoner for two 18th-levels, 4 16th-levels, and so on down the line.
The reason is, the table assumes a nice, normal distribution of levels, where you have a lot of people at the bottom and only one or two at the top. But, this isn't always true; sometimes you'll have a huge number in the middle. For example, I have a town where no one (other than children) has less than 3 levels, because it's just a dangerous area and everyone's had to deal with it at one point. The DMG tables don't fit for this.
(Or, you could say that what you see is a 20th-level person who acts like a Commoner; that is, he plows his field, milks cows, whatever, but he could be a retired adventurer. While he fits the Commoner "role", his actual class levels are something else entirely.)
Note: this can work for the Leadership feat too, in reverse. If the table says you get 100 1st-level followers, you could let the player trade them in for 50 3rd-level followers, 25 5th-level, and so on. Not every leader has a large army of expendable followers; some have a relatively small group of competent assistants. If I run an assassins' guild, it'd be pointless to have a large number of level 1 Rogues; I'd rather have a half-dozen members who have actually reached the PrC, and one (cohort) to lead them.
You're not ACTUALLY getting a 20th-level Commoner. Maybe you're getting a group of Commoners with the EL of a 20th-level Commoner. Using the +2-for-doubling rules, that means you could trade in that 20th-level Commoner for two 18th-levels, 4 16th-levels, and so on down the line.
The reason is, the table assumes a nice, normal distribution of levels, where you have a lot of people at the bottom and only one or two at the top. But, this isn't always true; sometimes you'll have a huge number in the middle. For example, I have a town where no one (other than children) has less than 3 levels, because it's just a dangerous area and everyone's had to deal with it at one point. The DMG tables don't fit for this.
(Or, you could say that what you see is a 20th-level person who acts like a Commoner; that is, he plows his field, milks cows, whatever, but he could be a retired adventurer. While he fits the Commoner "role", his actual class levels are something else entirely.)
Note: this can work for the Leadership feat too, in reverse. If the table says you get 100 1st-level followers, you could let the player trade them in for 50 3rd-level followers, 25 5th-level, and so on. Not every leader has a large army of expendable followers; some have a relatively small group of competent assistants. If I run an assassins' guild, it'd be pointless to have a large number of level 1 Rogues; I'd rather have a half-dozen members who have actually reached the PrC, and one (cohort) to lead them.
GuardianLurker
Adventurer
*SIGH* One more time....
All right let me try one final time :
I am NOT trying to question the existence of, or justify the mere occurence of, high-level commoners.
Those of you who have been replying along the lines of "a high-level commoner == crusty old coot" are completely missing my point.
Which is this :
In a community where the most experienced adventuring class (you know, the ones who *take* most of the risks) is 5th, how does a stay-at-home commoner achieve over twice the experience levels? In a world where the highest level adventurer is 20th, how can you support epic-level commoners?
I could (and do) support the existence of high-level commoners in parity (or a little bit less) than their adventuring peers, but in excess? In a community with an adventurer cap of 5th, I'd expect my commoners to top out around 4-6. And if I've got a hard cap of 20, then *#$%#$%* I shouldn't be seeing 21st level *anything*, much less 21st level *commoners*.
So far I haven't been disappointed.
All right let me try one final time :
I am NOT trying to question the existence of, or justify the mere occurence of, high-level commoners.
Those of you who have been replying along the lines of "a high-level commoner == crusty old coot" are completely missing my point.
Which is this :
In a community where the most experienced adventuring class (you know, the ones who *take* most of the risks) is 5th, how does a stay-at-home commoner achieve over twice the experience levels? In a world where the highest level adventurer is 20th, how can you support epic-level commoners?
I could (and do) support the existence of high-level commoners in parity (or a little bit less) than their adventuring peers, but in excess? In a community with an adventurer cap of 5th, I'd expect my commoners to top out around 4-6. And if I've got a hard cap of 20, then *#$%#$%* I shouldn't be seeing 21st level *anything*, much less 21st level *commoners*.
Bingo! You got it! In fact, I've already bought "Magical Medieval Society", though I haven't read through all of it yet. ~140 pages. Whoosh! In fact, as soon as I heard about it, I knew "IT MUST BE MINE!"Gez said:
So far I haven't been disappointed.
Re: *SIGH* One more time....
A commoner can gain levels over time just by doing his normal stuff around the village-- plant, harvest, milk the cows, whatever. But an adventurer can't gain levels that way; he needs to go out and kill monsters, or do other Adventurer Stuff, in order to advance his PC class.
If you want to be picky about it and compare a Venerable commoner to a Venerable retired adventurer, I suppose the latter should have NPC class levels for the time he's spent in the village. So you've actually got a Rgr5/Com12, compared to the Com15 next door, or something like that. IMO that seems a bit complicated for its minimal game benefit, but YMMV.
If you're not using the ELH, then it's impossible for anyone to advance past 20th. Higher levels simply do not exist.
If you are using the ELH, find the page where it says that there is no epic advancement for NPC classes. Commoners (and experts, and warriors, and so on) still top out at 20.
If the commoner is higher level, it's because he's spent a lot more time gaining XP. A Com15 is almost certainly Venerable, while that Rgr5 may be in his early twenties.GuardianLurker said:
A commoner can gain levels over time just by doing his normal stuff around the village-- plant, harvest, milk the cows, whatever. But an adventurer can't gain levels that way; he needs to go out and kill monsters, or do other Adventurer Stuff, in order to advance his PC class.
If you want to be picky about it and compare a Venerable commoner to a Venerable retired adventurer, I suppose the latter should have NPC class levels for the time he's spent in the village. So you've actually got a Rgr5/Com12, compared to the Com15 next door, or something like that. IMO that seems a bit complicated for its minimal game benefit, but YMMV.
You don't.
If you're not using the ELH, then it's impossible for anyone to advance past 20th. Higher levels simply do not exist.
If you are using the ELH, find the page where it says that there is no epic advancement for NPC classes. Commoners (and experts, and warriors, and so on) still top out at 20.
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