WotBS WotBS - question(s)

[Skyscraper]

Edit: beware, there are SPOILERS IN THIS THREAD.

I'm on the verge of starting this campaign with a new group. I'll use this thread to ask a couple of questions, and perhaps others as they come up, to hopefully benefit from the wisdom of those who have already experienced the AP (or simply have an opinion ).

Question 1: Torrent. She appears as a level 2 cleric in the Scouring of Gate Pass, and as a Level 7 cleric in the Fire Forest. (I haven't read further in the AP yet.) How did you address the concern of her not overshadowing the PCs in combat due to her higher level?

Question 2: Torrent and Crystin. With a 5-PC group, these two augment the group to 6 in Scouring and 7 in Fire Forest. Did you find that the battles were long-winded due to a higher number of combatants?

Thanks for comments and suggestions,

Sky

 

[Morrus]

The answer to both is the same - you use the NPCs as best fits your group. We leave it to your judgement as to how best to use them - based on number of players, player willingness to control them in combat, personal preference, and so on.

In my own game (not saying this would work for you, but it worked perfectly for us), NPCs would not get involved in combat unless the PCs decided they would. The players would control the NPCs in combat if they wanted them to help. If an NPC became bloodied during the combat, they would count towards the XP division at the end - that way the PCs are reluctant to use them unless they have to, and tend to try to protect them.

As for Torrent - she's level 5 at the start of the forest and 7 at the end, so she stays one level ahead of the PCs (who go from 4 to 6 in that adventure). But she's nowhere near as optimized as a PC; she doesn't overshadow them.

 

[liggetar]

Like Morrus said - it depends how you use them. I usually found other things for Torrent to do in combat (like hold the horses) in Scouring, unless things were going badly for the PCs - in which case she would wander in and wonder what was taking so long.

In the Fire Forest, Torrent usually hung back to protect Haddin and Crystin. I had Haddin's MO be "The enemy will attack those who are attacking it, so let's let the PCs take care of it and not stick my neck out." Crystin began hiding, but as she struck up a friendship with the group's artificer, she would come out of hiding when the artificer was in trouble. Which usually resulted in me rolling to see if Haddin could convince her to cut off the attack and come back to him.

 

[Skyscraper]

Thanks for the replies. I'm aware that every group can manage NPCs as they see fit: I'm hoping for insight on how you handled them. The first replies are exactly what I was hoping for, keep'em rolling if you have'em!

Question 3: The Scourge by the Inquisitors aims to capture those that use magic.

a) who is considered a "magic user"? They are after Torrent, should I assume that clerics are considered as such? Torrent also studied at the Lyceum, an academy for learning magic... What is your interpretation of this? (Again, you can skip the "it's up to you" part if you feel it's up to me. If you wish to share, you can simply tell me what you did and I'd be glad to hear it.)

b) is it common knowledge that they kill the magic users that they capture? Is that what they do in reality?

I'm unclear on both points as the story proposes them, although it may be explicitly stated somewhere, between the campaign guide, the player guide, the adventure, and the way the info is broken down in the latter between the introduction, the skill challenges, the encounters... I admit that I get confused sometimes. I like that the story has depth, but I think having story-related info in one place would have helped, with reference to that one place when things occur. Although maybe that's just me and everyone else was good with this.

Thanks for any further help.

Sky

 

[Morrus]

: The Scourge by the Inquisitors aims to capture those that use magic.

a) who is considered a "magic user"? They are after Torrent, should I assume that clerics are considered as such? Torrent also studied at the Lyceum, an academy for learning magic... What is your interpretation of this?

They are after arcane users.

And also Torrent, because she is part of the resistance.

Again, you can skip the "it's up to you" part if you feel it's up to me. If you wish to share, you can simply tell me what you did and I'd be glad to hear it.

Honestly, you're going to have to get used to that answer. If it doesn't suit you, with all due respect, this may not be the adventure path for you. Unlike the WotC APs, it's specifically and deliberately designed for experienced DMs (the WotC ones are designed for beginners and are pretty much location-base encounters, with a few exceptions).

These are designed with a lot of freedom and scope for you to take it and run with it as you wish. That's why we don't tell you how to do things. We're fairly adamant about that.

We do appreciate that's not everyone's cup of tea, but it is the honest answer. I'm afraid you're not going to be able to avoid the "it's up to you" type answers because, quite simply, the adventures are designed exactly in that way. It is up to you. They really don't lead you by the nose.

That has its advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that beginner DMs might struggle to run them (and I'd always point them towards the WotC adventure paths as being perfect for those people). The advantage is every campaign is unique and full of depth, and tailored to those playing it - providing, in my opinion, a far more fulfilling experience. But at the cost of some work.

We could just tell you how to handle everything; but then we wouldn't be achieving the goal we sought - to provide an adventure path which goes beyond the paradigms presented in other such paths.

b) is it common knowledge that they kill the magic users that they capture? Is that what they do in reality?

No and no.

I'm unclear on both points as the story proposes them, although it may be explicitly stated somewhere, between the campaign guide, the player guide, the adventure, and the way the info is broken down in the latter between the introduction, the skill challenges, the encounters... I admit that I get confused sometimes. I like that the story has depth, but I think having story-related info in one place would have helped, with reference to that one place when things occur. Although maybe that's just me and everyone else was good with this.

They're capturing magic users to fuel a weapon which appears in a later adventure (O Wintry Song of Agony). Nobody knows this until much later in the saga.*


*The case in adventure #1 actually contains the plans to this weapon, but it takes a few adventures to decipher them.

 

[Skyscraper]

Thanks for the reply, Morrus, and the previous ones.

Honestly, you're going to have to get used to that answer. If it doesn't suit you, with all due respect, this may not be the adventure path for you.

I'm not looking for an overarching truth here, just for everyone's input on how they handled their campaign game concerning points that are unclear to me or that I'm still hesitant on.

To phrase this another way: let's assume that we all agree that "it's up to the DM and players to play the game as they see fit". Really, even assuming it wasn't clear at the outset, it's the introduction to most posts that answer my questions, so I'm clear on it by now

With this basic assumption in mind, I'm here to try to refine how "I'll play the game as I see fit" by clarifying certain points and by benefitting from the experience of others. And, who knows, perhaps others will benefit from my experience if I get to posting it.

I admit that I'm not used to running commercial adventures. I've run two lengthy campaigns and a few bucket loads of short adventures, I've played quite a bit too, over 30 years of D&D, 95% of which were homebrew. So my approach may not be optimal, I may be expecting stuff to be otherwise, but I figure I'm still learning, as hopefully I'll do for my whole life. They say knowledge starts by realizing how much you don't know...

Anyway, thanks to you and everyone's patience and answers, it is truly appreciated.

Sky

 

[Bercilak]

Questions 1 and 2:
I started out having Torrent as a full-member of the party, but after seeing Durn's post here, I switched her to a companion and let the players run her in combat. The companion build also nerfs her abilities and makes her much more of a sidekick than a full-PC. I played Crystin as incredibly unsure of herself and scared to fight. She mainly stayed in the back with Haddin and would only fight if attacked. (I quickly had her get a crush on our group's bard, to give the group motivation to both keep her safe and to keep her father around--even though he verbally abused the party at every turn.)

By the time the group gets a bit into the 3rd adventure, they could have 5 NPCs with them (one more than the number of players in my group, lol). So identifying how you want to handle party groupies is an important decision early on in the campaign, I think.

(I stopped giving XP based on combats and skill challenges and just started boosting the party to the right level when it felt right according to the adventures, so I didn't mind if some of the fights were heavily favored on the side of the party. (And I could usually find ways to have the NPCs engaged elsewhere when I really wanted a tense fight.) I'm more interested in the overall story than in the individual fights--a number of which seem to exist solely to provide XP and are, at best, tangentially related to the plot, as are a number of the skill challenges, as you noted in your other post.)

Berc

 

[Morrus]

I'm not looking for an overarching truth here, just for everyone's input on how they handled their campaign game concerning points that are unclear to me or that I'm still hesitant on.

To phrase this another way: let's assume that we all agree that "it's up to the DM and players to play the game as they see fit". Really, even assuming it wasn't clear at the outset, it's the introduction to most posts that answer my questions, so I'm clear on it by now

Fair enough! I just wanted to explain our basic design philosophy, which was to leave as much in the hands of the DM as possible. Apologies if I've been reiterating it a bit too much!

 

[Skyscraper]

Fair enough! I just wanted to explain our basic design philosophy, which was to leave as much in the hands of the DM as possible. Apologies if I've been reiterating it a bit too much!

No problem, we're communicating in a forum, it's hard to sense the interlocutor and my own posts are the reason for your reply - I try to say what I wish as best I can, which means imperfectly in the best of cases.

As for the design philosophy, it's one that I can relate to and I'm glad to hear that's the one you embrace.

I admit that I'm starting to feel pretty excited to start this campaign. Normally, Monday night, pending one player's confirmation. Isn't that something, a new campaign!

Sky

 

[Blackbrrd]

....

Question 1: Torrent. She appears as a level 2 cleric in the Scouring of Gate Pass, and as a Level 7 cleric in the Fire Forest. (I haven't read further in the AP yet.) How did you address the concern of her not overshadowing the PCs in combat due to her higher level?

Question 2: Torrent and Crystin. With a 5-PC group, these two augment the group to 6 in Scouring and 7 in Fire Forest. Did you find that the battles were long-winded due to a higher number of combatants?
....

I have explained to my players that due to having a large party (7 players+dm) I don't want to run the NPC's in combat as well, with the additional monsters I would have to use to balance the encounters and the extra time this would take. The characters should treat the NPC's as actually helping them out even if we aren't running them.

Personally I would have preferred if there weren't a bunch of NPC's tagging along with the party, but it seems to me that there will be some weird holes in the story if they aren't there. The above solution makes it possible to have them tagging along without making combat slow.