WotC CS answers some Stealth and Shadow Walk questions

[buzz]

More answers from CS:

Me: The PHB says that Stealth checks are made "Part of whatever action you are trying to perform stealthily." Can you make a Stealth check as part of an attack, assuming you have Cover/Concealment?

[highlight]CS: No, you cannot use stealth as part of an attack, as attacking automatically cancels any stealth you have, as the creature is fully aware of you once you attack.[/highlight]

I sort of understand this (but was not playing it this way). It seems like the Stealth skill description should have explicitly stated this, instead of "as part of whatever action."

 

[Hypersmurf]

Me: The PHB says that Stealth checks are made "Part of whatever action you are trying to perform stealthily." Can you make a Stealth check as part of an attack, assuming you have Cover/Concealment?

[highlight]CS: No, you cannot use stealth as part of an attack, as attacking automatically cancels any stealth you have, as the creature is fully aware of you once you attack.[/highlight]

They seem to have skipped over a key word from the Skill text:

If you later attack or shout, you’re no longer hidden.

If I use Stealth as part of my attack action, I'm hidden. If I later attack, I'm no longer hidden.

-Hyp.

 

[MyISPHatesENWorld]

Something to think about regarding the "Part of whatever action your are trying to perform stealthily" thing...

Multiple powers that aren't "move actions" allow you to move. These are just utilities from Rogue/Fighter/Ranger...

Leaping Dodge - Immediate Interrupt
Into the Fray - Minor
Surprise Step - Immediate Interrupt
Yield Ground - Immediate Interrupt
Weave Through the Fray - Immediate Interrupt
Open the Range - Immediate Interrupt
Evade the Blow - Immediate Interrupt
Momentary Respite - Standard Action
Hit the Dirt - Immediate Interrupt

There is also the possibility of shifting as a result of another character using the warlord power Wolfpack Tactics (which lets the ally shift as a free action). Knight's Move lists it's effect as take a move action as a free action. White Raven formation allows all allies to take a move action.

The fighter power Covering Attack is problematic because it doesn't describe what kind of action the ally is using to shift. Similarly the Warlord power Tactical Shift doesn't provide an action type for the recipient.

 

[sigfile]

Check out the compendium entry for stealth.

Stealth: At the end of a move action.

Becoming Hidden: You can make a Stealth check against an enemy only if you have superior cover or total concealment against the enemy or if you’re outside the enemy’s line of sight.

Superior Cover or Total Concealment only. No Shadow Walk phantoms, no lounge chair ninjas.

The compendium entry clarifies a LOT more than this. Take a peek.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Check out the compendium entry for stealth.

What's the policy on when the Compendium contradicts a rulebook? Which is considered to take precedence?

-Hyp.

 

[mach1.9pants]

I dunno what the policy is but my guess is the next errata will be ike the compendium!

 

[MyISPHatesENWorld]

Awesome, if that compendium holds, I hope they plan on editing this:

"Rogues slip into and out of shadows on a whim, pass anywhere across the field of battle without fear of reprisal, and appear suddenly only to drive home a lethal blade."

to:

"Rogues rarely slip into and out of the shadows - and do so mainly when they are already hidden, avoid moving around the field of battle because of a fear of being slaughtered, and occasionally can flank with the fighter a few rounds into the fight when it is safe to do so."

I figured profession skills were coming back sooner or later, but Profession:Stealth really caught me off guard.

 

[Tsuul]

Is WotC is bringing back the "You must not be observed" rule from 3.x.

You need Total Concealment or Superior Cover to initiate Stealth, but to keep it going you need any kind of Cover or Concealment.

Keep Out of Sight: If you no longer have any cover or concealment against an enemy, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy. You don’t need superior cover, total concealment, or to stay outside line of sight, but you do need some degree of cover or concealment to remain hidden. You can’t use another creature as cover to remain hidden.

I will give them points for a solution that produces very little errata changes.

 

[Revinor]

So someone who rolles an d20 - 10 and rolls 5 for an total of -5, automaticly gets an 1 wich is always an miss.. same for damage..

It could be ive been playing this wrong for the last 6 years..

You are playing 4th edition for 6 years? Or just assuming that every rule from 3rd edition is still valid in 4th edition? If latter, then you need to be careful, there are some other changes in addition to being able to deal 0 damage.

 

[clearstream]

Check out the compendium entry for stealth.

Superior Cover or Total Concealment only. No Shadow Walk phantoms, no lounge chair ninjas.

The compendium entry clarifies a LOT more than this. Take a peek.

Nice find! Now to digest... but 'At the end of a move action.' and 'only if you have superior cover or total concealment'.

Kind of nerfing it, but also allowing them to treat it as invisible. End of the move is essential due to bugs and complications with anything else. What they correctly did is ensure it happens cleanly when nothing else is going on, which has always been the basic requirement to untangle lasting condition.

Also notice what you must do to maintain hiding. Out of sight. Quiet. Still. Don't attack. You can slink slowly around a combat... as a lurker. SW now has only marginal use.

Bottom-line: they had to pick one of lasting-condition or with the action to untangle the rules, and so I'm glad they finally picked one. Everyone can claim some victories with the Compendium ruling, and the brave will admit some losses. Stealth vs passive... <sigh>

-vk