WOTC D20 Modern vs AEG Spycraft

[C. Baize]

I definitely recommend Chris Rice's Blood & Fists, Blood & Relics and Blood & Guts. As shocking as this is, I think he's actually got a better instinct on interestign ways to grow the system than the Game Mechanic guys, whose stuff is good but pretty right down the middle.

Just a quick note... It's Charles Rice...
And for the record, I think his stuff is at least as good, if not better than TGM, as well. Blood and Fists particularly rocks.
You know... IMNSHO.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Just a quick note... It's Charles Rice...
And for the record, I think his stuff is at least as good, if not better than TGM, as well. Blood and Fists particularly rocks.
You know... IMNSHO.

But these things are for d20 Modern. Is Blood and Fist and Guts etc. usable with Spycraft, or will it take so much adjusting as not to be worth the trouble?

Later,

 

[C. Baize]

But these things are for d20 Modern. Is Blood and Fist and Guts etc. usable with Spycraft, or will it take so much adjusting as not to be worth the trouble?

Later,

I haven't got a clue. I don't have Spycraft, and I'm not planning to get it. Spycraft might well be a great system, but I'm honestly just not interested. I'm going to be purchasing a Spycraft product, and likely converting everything in it to D20 Modern. If for no other reason, than because I very much enjoy the way D20 Modern plays.

 

[King of Old School]

I disagree, just look at the amount of magic available in the different campaigns. ShadowChasers is Call of Cthullu / X-files / Buffy, no - low level magic. Urban Arcana is more DnD / Charmed. To me that is a huge difference in setting and style.

I think that's a a consequence of character POV rather than a wholly different setting. In Shadow Chasers you're looking at the setting from the POV of characters outside the supernatural "in crowd" whereas in Urban Arcana the characters are part of the magical community. It's like Buffy and Angel, same setting but very different styles and themes. Or in RPG terms, it's like Unknown Armies: a campaign played at street level is very different from one played at global (let alone cosmic) level.

KoOS

 

[The Great Sun Jester]

All I can say to those companies like SJG, White Wolf, Palladium, if you prefer your current flow of revenue coming in, keep doing what you're doing in. But if you want to push your wares, you better think of a marketing strategy fast, unless you wish to quit the industry. Your choice.

Good God! That's quite the most idiotic and blinkered thing I've heard said in ages. Ranger REG, you almost deserve congratulations for the heights of smugness and insularity you have achieved. I wouldn't know about Palladium, but I think you'll find that White Wolf and SJG at least are in no danger of being forced to 'quit the industry' as you put it, and I'd be pretty sure that they'll all still be there when the D20 bubble bursts, and Wizards/Hasbro go back to making their money from Pokemon cards. However much you may love Wizards, to be indulging in this sort of fantasising about their world-dominance and market share is frankly wierd. Yes, their games outsell any other companies', but then, Britney's albums outsell Neil Young's, does that make them better? By D20, Wizards have produced nothing original or memorable save for the marketing gimmick that is the OGL. Just for the record, in my ever-so-humble opinion, D20 Modern and Urban Arcana, the subjects of this particular debate, are, quite honestly, in terms of premise and execution, two of the worst gaming products I've ever seen.

Just don't sit on your ass and complain like an unemployed skinhead (whose job was taken by a minority who is better educated, creative, and have initiative).

Okay. That's quite possibly the worst analogy ever. Well done. It would be very easy for someone who didn't like them, and who considered their market dominance not to be a good thing for the roleplaying industry, stifling creativity and originality in game design as it does, to make some pointed comparisons between their efforts to stamp out all other systems and current American cultural imperialism. Just how have Wizards been innovative or creative? I cannot think of a single one of their D20 products that I would describe in either of those terms, or indeed which does much more than retread the path made by D&D twenty-odd years ago. Playing these games can be fun, and producing them is clearly profitable, but innovation consists of much more than just being owned by a multinational toy concern, and thus having a much larger marketing budget than anyone else in the industry. Anyone actually looking for an innovative new game would be far better off with Adept Press' Sorceror, or Driftwood Publishing's The Riddle of Steel, or even with White Wolf's Demon: the Fallen, or Atlas' Unknown Armies.

You could hire Ryan Dancey to help you guys out.

I don't really have anything in particular to say in reply to this last quote, I just thought it higlighted quite how asinine and juvenile your post was.

 

[dpmcalister]

Spycraft wins, hands down, no contest, IMHO. The only things you can do with D20M out-of-th-box that you can't do with Spycraft out-of-the-box can be done as well or better by using Spycraft+D&D than by using D20M.

<the rest is snipped to save space>

That's the best overview I've seen of the two systems yet. Much better than I could have written. Thanks, it made interesting reading (even though I've got both and am already a Spycraft fan).

 

[woodelf]

That's the best overview I've seen of the two systems yet. Much better than I could have written. Thanks, it made interesting reading (even though I've got both and am already a Spycraft fan).

Thanks! I was beginning to wonder if i'd spent all that time writing a detailed comparison for nobody to read. Especially since i should've been working on my social-centric D20 system which i'm running at GenCon in a couple of days...

 

[Dismas]

Thanks! I was beginning to wonder if i'd spent all that time writing a detailed comparison for nobody to read. Especially since i should've been working on my social-centric D20 system which i'm running at GenCon in a couple of days...

It is an interesting article (missed it first time round), one error that jumps out however is the amount of Action Points in Modern.

In modern you get 5 + 1/2 Level AP per level for Basic Classes, 6+1/2 Level AP per level for Advanced Classes and 7 + 1/2 Level AP per Prestige Classes.

Each AP allows you to roll either 1,2 or 3 d6 (depending on level) and keep the highest.

I'd be Interested to hear more about the social-centric game as well.

 

[Ranger REG]

Good God! That's quite the most idiotic and blinkered thing I've heard said in ages. Ranger REG, you almost deserve congratulations for the heights of smugness and insularity you have achieved.

Hehehe. Look, I know that the major publishers I've previously mentioned are doing fine. It's the attitude of some of their fans that felt threatened by the flood of d20 products pushing their favorite games off the shelves of their FLGS.

To them I say, "Don't worry. The other companies are still around and are publishing your favorite non-d20 games.

"But if you want them to be more aggressive, you gotta tell them. Otherwise, stop bashing on the d20/OGL movement."



OBTW, Wizards no longer making Pokemon.

Just for the record, in my ever-so-humble opinion, D20 Modern and Urban Arcana, the subjects of this particular debate, are, quite honestly, in terms of premise and execution, two of the worst gaming products I've ever seen.

Hmm. Should never get involved in a "vs." debate.

But since I'm asking, what is it specifically that d20 Modern lacks?

 

[Terath Ninir]

No it is not. d20 Modern is a generic toolkit.

That is one of the silliest statements I have *ever* seen. It is in no way generic. It is 2002 USA with magic lurking in the shadows. The farther you get from that, the quicker the rules fall apart. Scale it back 30 years. The weapon "purchase" rules don't work any more; most of the restrictions are gone. Move it to Britain -- the weapon restrictions are much tougher. Remove magic, and you throw away much of the book.

I could list many more examples, but no one in this thread is listening to anyone else, so I'll stop here.

No, it ain't generic. Not by a long, long shot. Spycraft is much closer to generic and it is specifically spy genre!