[WOTC] Minis Spotlight

[Gizzard]

Hmm... No accounting for taste, I guess...

Well, if you are good with a brush, how long do you think it will take you to fix Mr. Half-Orc up to a "passable" level?

I think even 5 minutes giving him some eyes, drybrushing the cloak and giving two washes to the fig helps a lot.

Just like MageKnight, those people with some extra talent and time to spare will fix up the minis they like. The rest will play with them as is and not care, since it's about as good as they could do on their own.

 

[Roland Delacroix]

How often do you desperately need a certain miniature? I know I've never bought a mini based on upcoming games - I usually just pick up what looks nice or I think I might want to paint. If I happen to have a mini I need when I run a game, all the better, but if not, it's no big deal. Am I the only one who shops like that?

The last $300 or so I spent was on specific figs for campaigns. I tried to buy the figs for every encounter in RttToEE and Tomb of Horrors. Also minis for other PC's.

Damn those WotC minis look awful. If you like em, luck to ya. Herocix may not look good (but not BAD) but hey, yer playing with the HULK and MAGNETO! Coolness factor outweights the paint.

If you want inexpensive grunts look to Games Workshop's LotR plastic boxes. You get about 24 minis for $16, thats 67 cents a mini!! I got 24 sweet plastic goblins, 16 elves and 8 humans in 12 poses/box for $30, shipped, online. The Uruk-Hai (orcs) box has 10 Sword and Board and 10 Pike orcs for $16. They have Goblin, Human warriors, Elven warrior, and siege orcs boxes. The detail on them is superb and as plastics alterations are easy and fun. They will require paint but look a thousand times better than these WotC stuff. The intention is to sell you the cheap (but niiice) plastics and get you into the game so you buy the expensive metals, but I won't tell if you don't BTW plastics are more durable than metals and chip paint much less. These LotR minis are some of the best i've seen for that, i've yet to have a chip.

Every few months im in a game, playing on a square mat, and the DM will say something like: "A huge mob of Goblinoids leap out of the dark and attacks you and your elf escorts. Ummm, i only have 3 orc and goblin minis though, so we'll use tokens." firing back with "Are about 50 orc and goblin minis enough?" is PRICELESS.

The Chainmail stuff, it was pretty good. I think they actually coulda done good with it if they had changed their focus a little. Drop the stupid skirmish game and produce the mini's noone else does, double sword elves, displacer beasts, azers. Those are minis noone else even bothered to make but DM's and players wanted to use.

KenM: Locking threads with the slightest negative remarks towards WotC is SOP over there. Usually they get locked AND removed. I've seen this DOZENS of times, heh, you shoulda seen the S&F boards It's their boards though, and I can't blame them. Do you really expect to get a true review from the manufacturers website though?

 

[Pramas]

If the original Chainmail gang had been able to do it the way they wanted to, what do you think it would the line have been like, and what kind of niche would it have found in the marketplace?

always interested in might-have-beens,

The original plan was as follows. The skirmish game would be released with six different starters. Each starter would contain 3 minis from a different faction, rules and counters, and retails for $12.99. The idea here was to give people some choice right away (even if all that choice was was "these gnolls look cool.") and to make the starters so affordable that lots of folks would give it a try. Even if you didn't like the game, you still got 3 minis (one of which was a larger fig, like a centaur).

The skirmish game was only meant to stand alone for three months. At that point the full mass battles game was to debut, in a big ass box stuffed with plastic figs and terrain. I still have copies of the sketches Sam Wood did for the contents of this box and it would have been very cool. The plastic figs were to have included an undead dragon, hobgoblin archers, and human knights, amongst other things. The idea was that you could play the game on its own, or use it for mass battles in your D&D campaign. It would have been supported with new units, in both boxed sets and blisters, and rules add-ons like army books.

I could probably write a book on why this plan never happened and why Chainmail ultimately took the form it did (including calling it Chainmail, which every member of the design team opposed). Of course, someone would need to pay me for it. The biggest thing working against the above plan was WotC's conviction that the game must be idealized for organized play. You can play 3 rounds of Magic in an hour, but you sure can't play 3 mass battles in an hour. That was one of the main reasons the "skirmish only" format developed.

I was disappointed that the varied starters idea was kaiboshed in favor of one $30 starter with fixed factions. Old WotC hands (from the early days of Magic) argued that you couldn't possibly give people only three figs from one faction. That would only be half a game! Yeah, no one has ever had any success with a game in which you and a friend both have to buy a starter. Oh, except that pesky Magic game that put WotC on the map!

Anyway, water under the bridge at this point. I'll be curious to see how the new game performs. Like others, I believe upper management at WotC has extremely unrealistic expectations on what this game can do for them.

 

[John Crichton]

Paint Jobs and In General:

I've done some mini painting in my time and I have to say that I'm pretty good. However, it takes me WAY too long to paint just one and have it look the way I want to. I use that time now to plan for my games or do some other campaign related activity. My time is somewhat limited as it is and I want to make the game run as smoothly as possible. That and I just simply don't feel like painting any more minis.

Many have been complaining about the quality of the paint jobs. Some of these minis don't look all that hot in the pictures. Well, the 2 that have been posted in this thread aren't exactly actual size. They are blown up and of course we are going to see flaws. And no, they aren't fantastic. But they are good enough to spill on to the table for a few minutes for the PC's to hammer on them. And if any PC really wants a good looking mini to represent them there is nothing stopping them from going out and buying one that suits them. Painting one mini is no big deal. But painting a ton of minis is something that I have no plans for anytime in the near future.

Random Packaging:

I didn't like it either until I thought about it. Besides the secondary market which I know will pop up in my area and online there is another advantage to it (which has been eluded to already). Folks have already mentioned shelf space and basic price which leads me to my point: Keeping these things cheap enough to warrant buying one and WotC to keep making different lines. If they are talking about rarity and making sure people get what they want. But making them random and relatively cheap it makes sure that don't HAVE to pay a higher price for a particular mini that I want. Sure, I will probably be somewhat unlucky and not get every single one I want but it's better than having to pay a higher price right off the bat for a rare that I want.

Overall:

I'll be buying a few packs right off the bat just to make sure I don't get burned. But if they are halfway decent I'll certainly be investing more into them. I'm not looking for high-quality minis here, just something that looks like the critter or possible NPC the PC's will run into. Plus, if this works I'm sure WotC will make it better with different critters, variants and maybe even all the base PC class/race combos with a few choices here and there. And if it keeps them in business, so be it. I think they have done a fantastic job with 3e and on so far and hope they continue to do so.

 

[mmu1]

Well, if you are good with a brush, how long do you think it will take you to fix Mr. Half-Orc up to a "passable" level?

I think even 5 minutes giving him some eyes, drybrushing the cloak and giving two washes to the fig helps a lot.

Just like MageKnight, those people with some extra talent and time to spare will fix up the minis they like. The rest will play with them as is and not care, since it's about as good as they could do on their own.

It'd take me a lot longer than 5 minutes, that's for certain (that's not enough time for one coat of paint to dry) - and if I'm going to do any painting, I've got way too many unpainted GW LotR and Reaper minis sitting around to paint something that has about as much detail as a toy soldier I played with in kindergarten.

Come on, people, they couldn't even be bothered to make the freakin' base uniform in thickness.

On the plus side, it's acutally motivated me to start painting some decent minis, so maybe it's not all bad.

 

[Azul]

What DM wants to spend $80 bucks on 10 expansion packs, and get 10 "rares" (which will most likely contain one or two doubles), 20 "uncommons" and 50 "commons"? I can see having use for 10 "rares" and 20 "uncommons", but who needs 50 minis worth of "fodder", especially since no one is going to want to buy or trade them?

50 minis worth of fodder, sure, I own at least that many "fodder" minis. You can never have enough goblins, orcs, skeletons, human mooks, or other basic goons, IMHO.

Now, are these commons actually going to be that sort of DM cannon fodder mini? I don't know. I certainly wouldn't be interested in having 50 identical halfling rogues (or any other PC mini).

Did you ever run a game in which you really needed a dozen orcs, a dozen goblins, a dozen kobolds, etc?

Yes, often. Cannon fodder humanoids/animate dead appear by the dozen in large climactic battles in my campaigns. It is nice to have the right type of mini since it helps players visualize things.

I buy identifiable monsters (illlithids, mummies, vampires, drow, etc.) orc/gnoll/bugbrar chieftains and spellcasters, figures I can use for memorable NPCs, etc - over the years, I've accumulated more "fodder" minis then I'll ever use, and I don't want any more.

Same here, but getting a bunch of the more common mooks for cheap wouldn't bother me. As it stands, I usually have a half dozen to a dozen of any given major type of mook. Being able to yank out a few dozen inexpensive minis for a big battle would be nice. Especially if they aren't metal (because I haul my damn collection to gaming)...

That being said, I'm really non-plussed about the absolutely random nature of these packs. That alone will probably prevent me from buying more than just a small sampling (as "random filler" to add a little variety to my collection).

Someone mentioned the idea of theme packs (like an orc theme pack). That might be kind of cool. I wouldn't mind buying a pack or two of orcs (or undead or dwarves or whatever) and getting a random assortment of them since I know what I'm generally purchasing. I can always round out the major NPCs with metal minis.

Not to mention that these things don't look halway as good as unpainted Reaper minis...

Amen to that. Reaper has nothing to fear from these things, IMHO. I'll happily keep buying Reapers products.

The new plastics look ok (not great) as far as sculpting goes, but the paint jobs are things I can outdo even when I'm being quick and sloppy. Still, a gob of pre-painted mooks (even with crumby paint jobs) is nice to have, especially since these are minis that get "popped" readily. As for using them as PCs... ugh, perish the thought. Maybe after a repainting.

As for "trademarked" products, plenty of "renamed" monsters are available. Reaper sells mind flayer minis but calls them "bathalians" or something like that. Still, you look at the mini, and you know it's a mind flayer. Beholders I've never seen outside an official line, but then all those eyestalks make for a fragile mini.

 

[spacecrime.com]

(Chris Pramas's outline of his approach to the game snipped)

Damn, Chris, that sounds like it would have been seriously cool.

I'm not sure I would have bought the starter idea as is -- ($13 x number of players) does seem a little high as a jump-in point, and I think I would have preferred to see 3 sets of 5-6 figures. OTOH, 3 good metal figures is a pretty good deal at $13, so maybe the figures themselves would have carried people over the "try it" threshold.

The big box follow-up sounds absolutely smashing, however, especially with the starters giving everyone the tease beforehand. I can see that one under the Christmas tree of damn near every D&Der I've ever met...

Sigh. <b>Now</b> I want a big box Freedom City miniatures set -- every supercharacter mentioned in the book, plus an assortment of mooks and other characters. Charge me whatever you want... I'll pay it with mad glee...

cheers,

 

[Zaruthustran]

If you want inexpensive grunts look to Games Workshop's LotR plastic boxes. You get about 24 minis for $16, thats 67 cents a mini!! I got 24 sweet plastic goblins, 16 elves and 8 humans in 12 poses/box for $30, shipped, online. The Uruk-Hai (orcs) box has 10 Sword and Board and 10 Pike orcs for $16. They have Goblin, Human warriors, Elven warrior, and siege orcs boxes. The detail on them is superb and as plastics alterations are easy and fun. They will require paint but look a thousand times better than these WotC stuff.

You're comparing prepainted plastic minis to unpainted unassembled plastic minis. The fact that the GW minis can be made to look better is not a revelation. You're comparing two unlike products.

Again: many, many gamers don't want to bother with cutting minis from sprues, gluing them to bases, priming, painting, washing, drybrushing, touching up, sealing. They just want basic colorful figures to game with. The figures for the D&D Miniatures game can meet the needs of these gamers.

The Chainmail stuff, it was pretty good. I think they actually coulda done good with it if they had changed their focus a little. Drop the stupid skirmish game and produce the mini's noone else does, double sword elves, displacer beasts, azers. Those are minis noone else even bothered to make but DM's and players wanted to use.

The "stupid skirmish game" was the reason those figures existed. WotC was not trying to compete with Reaper or any of the other single figure manufacturers. It was selling a line of figures for use with an all-new game.

In Chainmail's case, selling individually-packaged metal figures was a really bad idea. Since different figs have different power level/popularity, it's a nightmare keeping track of demand and making sure your retailers keep adequate stock. And as a player, if you see a cool new figure on the shelf, you can't buy and play with it right away. Nope, you've got to invest 3 hours MINIMUM to get the thing primed and painted. Over 24 hours if you take your time and actually let your primer and sealer dry properly. With each warband composed of 5-20 minis, and each mini taking requiring multiple hours of preperation, you can see why chainmail didn't take off. The rules were ok, but the packaging scheme and marketing strategy were terrible.

What would be ideal for D&D RPG players is for WotC to offer theme packs of Commons for sale on their website. While a dirt retailer has very limited and expensive physical shelf space, a website has virtually unlimited shelf space.

But in the meantime, I'm eager to try out the new game. And eager to add these instantly-usable plastic minis to my D&D RPG game. Just think: when they're down on the table, they look just about as good as a hand-painted mini. And instead of requiring custom-built miniatures cases, you can just toss handfuls of them into your dice bag or one of those disposable tupperware containers.

-z

 

[mearls]

I like 3 or 4 of the figures show in that preview. I'd gladly buy them if I could purchase them separately. Since I can't, I won't bother.

The ironic thing is that, from what I've heard, MageKnight is slowing down while HeroClix and Mechwarrior are picking up the slack. WotC might be jumping into this market a year or two too late.

Too bad the outline Pramas posted above never came to fruition. I'd have gladly invested in a big box of D&D miniatures battles goodness.

What annoys me about the entire D&D miniatures debacle is that the first wave of WotC figures were great. I still consider them to be amongst the best minis I own. I'd really love the chance to buy another Regdar.

 

[Olive]

I still think that these fill a niche that isn't being filled. And while they ain't fantastic looking, neither are my paint jobs and neither will I be looking at them blown up by a factor of 5 against a white background in perfect light. So how much do I care?

Wether this lasts, or it meets the expectations of WotC senior staff or anything else is a different amtter. But because you're a hardcore mini painter and gamer and aren't interested, doesn't mean that you're the entire market. those of us who
a) have no time,
b) paint poorly,
c) paint well enough but hate doing it,
d) like buying everything WotC produces,
e) aren't happy exactly but want cool DnD monster minis etc
might be into this, and no amount of being grumpy about the facts that WotC laid off your friends, or that they're not producing the best sculpted, hand painted by Mike McVey, 1c a mini krenshaws that they could be doing if only they weren't making these is going to change that.

I do think that randomness allows them to sculpt and produce minis that wouldn't get amde otherwise, and i thinkt hat this will allow them to make minis of MM2 and FF creatures later on. And that's cool. So I'll probably get some, keep an eye out for the same secondary market that thrives around here for other similar products (mage knight, heroclix etc.) and see how it goes. If it colapses, well I'll have some new minis, painted worse than i could have done, but at least painted, and I won't be any worse off.

PS I thinkt he real problem with the way they look is the stupid sheilds, and the fact that half orcs look pretty much exaclty like orcs. And that's not a problem with these minis, it's a problem with the 3e concept art...