WotC WotC needs an Elon Musk

[humble minion]

Lukewarm take - D&D shouldn't have a cosmology. Cosmology should be setting-specific. FR - a very pantheon-heavy setting - should have its array of divine domains where the deities reside. Spelljammer shouldn't have a cosmology because it's 100% about astral sailing to an infinite variety of weird otherworlds rather than plane-shifting there. Dark Sun shouldn't have any cosmology that allows you to escape Athas (or import water or metal etc from Sigil or the elemental plane of water or somewhere) - Dark Sun stories are about survival with limited resources and options, and the Black and the Grey support this sort of story with a spare, stark cosmology for a spare, stark setting. Campaigns in Krynn should hardly even think about extraplanar matters at all, unless in the final climactic session you're actually riding your dragon into the Abyss and sticking your Dragonlance in Takhisis's face.

Cosmology should support the sort of story a setting intends to tell, and a Ravenloft story isn't a Strixhaven story isn't an Eberron story (Eberron got this right, btw). The whole multiplicity of elemental planes and the Great Wheel works fine for Planescape, and the Astral Sea for Spelljammer, but both of them are a terrible fit for Athas. The obsession with shoehorning all the campaign settings into a single cosmology damages all of them, AND makes the cosmology less coherent in the bargain.

 

[Oofta]

Lukewarm take - D&D shouldn't have a cosmology. Cosmology should be setting-specific. FR - a very pantheon-heavy setting - should have its array of divine domains where the deities reside. Spelljammer shouldn't have a cosmology because it's 100% about astral sailing to an infinite variety of weird otherworlds rather than plane-shifting there. Dark Sun shouldn't have any cosmology that allows you to escape Athas (or import water or metal etc from Sigil or the elemental plane of water or somewhere) - Dark Sun stories are about survival with limited resources and options, and the Black and the Grey support this sort of story with a spare, stark cosmology for a spare, stark setting. Campaigns in Krynn should hardly even think about extraplanar matters at all, unless in the final climactic session you're actually riding your dragon into the Abyss and sticking your Dragonlance in Takhisis's face.

Cosmology should support the sort of story a setting intends to tell, and a Ravenloft story isn't a Strixhaven story isn't an Eberron story (Eberron got this right, btw). The whole multiplicity of elemental planes and the Great Wheel works fine for Planescape, and the Astral Sea for Spelljammer, but both of them are a terrible fit for Athas. The obsession with shoehorning all the campaign settings into a single cosmology damages all of them, AND makes the cosmology less coherent in the bargain.

I don't mind descriptions of the shadowfell and the feywild, or even the ethereal plane because those play into so many monsters and background lore, spells and magic items. But other than that? Give some general suggestions but we don't need a dozen pages on it. You can always ignore it for home games like I do, but there seems to be this desire to connect all campaigns into one larger cosmology for no reason I can understand.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I don't mind descriptions of the shadowfell and the feywild, or even the ethereal plane because those play into so many monsters and background lore, spells and magic items. But other than that? Give some general suggestions but we don't need a dozen pages on it. You can always ignore it for home games like I do, but there seems to be this desire to connect all campaigns into one larger cosmology for no reason I can understand.

While I'm generally a fan of that sort of thing, I'm confident that it's being pushed for marketing and IP protection reasons.

 

[Oofta]

While I'm generally a fan of that sort of thing, I'm confident that it's being pushed for marketing and IP protection reasons.

Might be. I just think they could put the pages in the DMG to better use.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

2e Great Wheel wasn't as complex as the 5e Great Wheel.

Really? Because 5e removed the many "para/quasi-elemental planes of existence" and just added a few more planes (Shadowfell, Feywild, Elemental Chaos). From what I know of the 2e Great Wheel, it was even more overly complex and big than the 5e version.

 

[humble minion]

Really? Because 5e removed the many "para/quasi-elemental planes of existence" and just added a few more planes (Shadowfell, Feywild, Elemental Chaos). From what I know of the 2e Great Wheel, it was even more overly complex and big than the 5e version.

Mind you, we haven't had a full in-depth planar sourcebook in 5e yet, and I think even in earlier editions (I can't speak for 4e here, but for the others) the quasi- and para-elemental planes didn't make the cut to be covered in the DMG. They only showed up in Manual of the Planes, Planescape etc. The core books are necessarily limited by space in what they can cover, so they generally just hit the high points.

I could do without another tortured diagram trying to illustrate where the astral, ethereal, prime, and shadow planes are in relation to one another and the inner/outer planes though.

 

[Scribe]

I could do without another tortured diagram trying to illustrate where the astral, ethereal, prime, and shadow planes are in relation to one another and the inner/outer planes though.

I'm partial to this one, not sure where I found it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'm partial to this one, not sure where I found it.

View attachment 268752

The poster map from the Planescape boxed set was pretty awesome too.

 

[Lanefan]

Fair enough. I'd  always rather have more stuff than less, and will challenge any opinion towards removing material.

Agreed, with the caveat that the "more stuff" not contradict or overwrite anything that has come before.

 

[Incenjucar]

If you don't plan to actually USE the planes, all you really need to know is that Inner Planes and Material Plane are in the Ethereal and the Outer Planes and Material Plane are in the Astral, and portals exist if you care about either the Inner or Outer planes. If you don't care to leave the material plane, that's about all you need to know for the purposes of things like banishment and spells.

If you DO like the planes, it's nice having a selection of places to go.

 

[Chaosmancer]

So, the earlier discussion of "has WoTC released a good sourcebook for a setting" got me itching to try and decide if a good sourcebook has been made, if you don't have any preconceptions about the setting.

Was going to do Theros, but then the discussion turned to Spelljammer and I ended up making a monster post... which was too big to put here and likely to derail. So I made a new thread

D&D General - Is Spelljammer really that bad?

So, slightly click-baity title, let me give context. I was reading through this thread (WotC - WotC needs an Elon Musk) about if WoTC needs Elon Musk, and one of the complaints that caught my eye amongst the various points of discussion was that WoTC has released "no good sourcebooks". Except...

www.enworld.org

TL;DR? I think the Spelljammer box set actually does act as a good sourcebook for a setting. It does a lot more than I think people realize, especially for people who don't have the expectation fo what spelljammer "should be"

Sad I've missed some of the more interesting discussions on this thread, but, took me a long time to get around to it.

 

[Clint_L]

Lukewarm take - D&D shouldn't have a cosmology. Cosmology should be setting-specific.

I agree 100%.

 

[Clint_L]

So, the earlier discussion of "has WoTC released a good sourcebook for a setting" got me itching to try and decide if a good sourcebook has been made...

I think a lot of the Forgotten Realms settings are very good, even if the Forgotten Realms themselves could use a kind of overall setting guide. For example, I think Rime of the Frostmaiden does a great job of fleshing out Icewind Dale.

On a more comprehensive scale, Explorer's Guide to Wildemount is a really good guide that does a great job of both setting up a world complete with a history and cosmology, a more detailed gazetteer of an entire continent, and then offering a series of introductory adventures set in four different regions. I think it's the best conceptualized setting guide WotC have put out for 5e.

 

[jgsugden]

Which is why I've always ignored it and just came up with my own system with multiple realms loosely based on Norse lore. Seriously, who needs the quasi-elemental plane of salt?

Potatoes. Potatoes need NA.

 

[Scribe]

Which is why I've always ignored it and just came up with my own system with multiple realms loosely based on Norse lore. Seriously, who needs the quasi-elemental plane of salt?

I mean as far as transitionary places, some of them are kind of neat.

Frostfell (Air and Water)
Swamp of Oblivion (Earth and Water)

The ones interacting with Positive/Negative are admittedly less interesting.

 

[Incenjucar]

Quasi-elemental planes tend to be extra intense, but can still be plenty interesting. Radiance already has a powerful healing location, and you can do so many cool things with light, color, reflection, etc. Ash has a lot of different forms and some interesting interactions with heat and cold. Salt can have so many different forms with giant crystals and salt storms and liquid salt that slows light. Dust has sand and rust monsters/dragons and empires and all kinds of fascinating decay situations. Etc. etc. Also remember that you can have chunks of other things in the elemental planes.

A mountain can be a big dumb rock or it can be Olympus.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Then maybe don't use it? There's no reason to remove things other people like because you don't want to go through the "effort" of ignoring them.

Who’s talking about removing anything? As far asI know, there is currently no plane of salt in 5e.

 

[Nikosandros]

As far asI know, there is currently no plane of salt in 5e.

What used to be the para-elemental planes are the border regions between the four elemental planes, but AFAICT the quasi-elemental planes are not mentioned at all. Actually, even the positive and negative planes are mentioned at the beginning of the planar chapter of the DMG, but they have no detailed description.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

Which is why I've always ignored it and just came up with my own system with multiple realms loosely based on Norse lore. Seriously, who needs the quasi-elemental plane of salt?

That's why I like the 4e "Elemental Chaos" approach. If you ever do need a quasi-elemental plane of salt then there's probably at least one floating around in the Elemental Chaos, but if you don't need one there's no need to categorize it in advance.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I mean as far as transitionary places, some of them are kind of neat.

Frostfell (Air and Water)
Swamp of Oblivion (Earth and Water)

The ones interacting with Positive/Negative are admittedly less interesting.

True, but are they neat because they are transitory elemental planes, or would they be just as cool somewhere else?

I could see taking the Swamp of Oblivion (an endless swamp, with endless depths) and putting it in the Feywild, the Abyss, or the Shadowfell easily. I mean, reading up on the place takes only seconds. It is a big swamp, no solid ground, things thrown in are rumored to stay lost for a century at least. That can be put anywhere. (Isn't Minauros basically the same thing?)

Same with Frostfell, though frankly other than the existence of Cryonax (who is a fun villain) I struggle to see how Frostfell is much different than other planes of extreme cold like Styiga, Cannia, or the Divine Domain of a deity of cold like Auril. Just... put it in the Feywild as part of the Winter Court and it works just fine.