WotC WotC needs an Elon Musk

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Maybe 1 movie and tv show was Indy 4 levels of bad (RoS and BoBF)

Kindergartener Leia is almost as bad as Drivers Ed instructor Boba Fett.

 

[AnotherGuy]

I don't care if you like the Great Wheel, liking a cosmology doesn't make it well designed for the game.

Sure. Same could be said for your preferences. Subjective right?

 

[Faolyn]

True. I don't see any reason to retroactively change existing stories. Just tell a new story with similar themes that appeals to your current customer base.

Let's take Dementlieu for a moment. A domain that centers around mind rape and heavily implies regular rape.

1. You keep Dementlieu as-is, thus deliberately including topics which are personally upsetting to many players, both new and original, who have suffered from emotional and sexual abuse. The game should be horrific to the characters but fun for the players, after all, and people who play female characters shouldn't have to worry about being specifically targeted just for entering the country.

2. You get rid of Dementlieu entirely, which will anger some original fans because it should be included.

3. You keep Dementlieu as is but get rid of of the rape, which means you end up changing the existing characters to work around that restriction, which will anger some original fans for not keeping it exactly the way it used to be and possibly make them think that WotC is being wussy or pandering or even woke.

4. You keep the name and general theme of Dementlieu but make major changes to it, which will anger some original fans who are annoyed that it's DINO (Dementlieu In Name Only).

5. You don't produce Ravenloft at all, but produce a different horror setting, which will anger some original fans who want to know why their favorite setting is being ignored in favor of a brand new one clearly geared to the new players.

6. You don't produce any horror setting, which will anger both original and new fans who thinks that WotC is being too wussy to put out a horror game, thus encouraging people to buy non-WotC material or even move to a different system altogether.

So... which of these options is the best one, in your opinion?

 

[AnotherGuy]

Let's take Dementlieu for a moment. A domain that centers around mind rape and heavily implies regular rape.

1. You keep Dementlieu as-is, thus deliberately including topics which are personally upsetting to many players, both new and original, who have suffered from emotional and sexual abuse. The game should be horrific to the characters but fun for the players, after all, and people who play female characters shouldn't have to worry about being specifically targeted just for entering the country.

2. You get rid of Dementlieu entirely, which will anger some original fans because it should be included.

3. You keep Dementlieu as is but get rid of of the rape, which means you end up changing the existing characters to work around that restriction, which will anger some original fans for not keeping it exactly the way it used to be and possibly make them think that WotC is being wussy or pandering or even woke.

4. You keep the name and general theme of Dementlieu but make major changes to it, which will anger some original fans who are annoyed that it's DINO (Dementlieu In Name Only).

5. You don't produce Ravenloft at all, but produce a different horror setting, which will anger some original fans who want to know why their favorite setting is being ignored in favor of a brand new one clearly geared to the new players.

6. You don't produce any horror setting, which will anger both original and new fans who thinks that WotC is being too wussy to put out a horror game, thus encouraging people to buy non-WotC material or even move to a different system altogether.

So... which of these options is the best one, in your opinion?

Horror is horror. You want to remove certain parts for your table go ahead. Its your table. When they make horror movies and series do you think they go through this entire debacle? Fading to black is also an option.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Backstory isn't setting.

There was also quite a bit of metaplot, but I know you don't like that either.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Eh, they kind of did in 4e... They more or less mapped the 3e Eberron Cosmology onto the World Axis and called it a day.

They even pulled Xoriat out of the "official" cosmology so it could function as their "realm from beyond known reality" Far Realm equivalent, and shoehorned in Baator to keep the number of Eberron's "actual" planes at the traditional 13 - one of the only things from 4e Eberron that I actually didn't like.

View attachment 268362

Yeah, but that's not the outright "completely replacing every setting's cosmology with the World Axis". It tried to integrate Eberron's cosmology into the World Axis and did change some things, but Eberron still had most of its planes from 3.5e.

Eberron was mostly just assimilated, kind of like it has been into the Great Wheel in 5e.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Let's take Dementlieu for a moment. A domain that centers around mind rape and heavily implies regular rape.

1. You keep Dementlieu as-is, thus deliberately including topics which are personally upsetting to many players, both new and original, who have suffered from emotional and sexual abuse. The game should be horrific to the characters but fun for the players, after all, and people who play female characters shouldn't have to worry about being specifically targeted just for entering the country.

2. You get rid of Dementlieu entirely, which will anger some original fans because it should be included.

3. You keep Dementlieu as is but get rid of of the rape, which means you end up changing the existing characters to work around that restriction, which will anger some original fans for not keeping it exactly the way it used to be and possibly make them think that WotC is being wussy or pandering or even woke.

4. You keep the name and general theme of Dementlieu but make major changes to it, which will anger some original fans who are annoyed that it's DINO (Dementlieu In Name Only).

5. You don't produce Ravenloft at all, but produce a different horror setting, which will anger some original fans who want to know why their favorite setting is being ignored in favor of a brand new one clearly geared to the new players.

6. You don't produce any horror setting, which will anger both original and new fans who thinks that WotC is being too wussy to put out a horror game, thus encouraging people to buy non-WotC material or even move to a different system altogether.

So... which of these options is the best one, in your opinion?

Option 2 in your example.

 

[Micah Sweet]

So replacing the World Axis with the Great Wheel is bad because it's not additive, right? Or does that guideline only apply to things you like?

No, they didn't. Not for Eberron.

And, again, that's besides the point. My point was that the World Axis is better for D&D. It wasn't even tangentially about setting consistency.

This tangent was originally about why there are more 5e adventures for the planes taken from 4e (Shadowfell, Feywild, Astral Sea) than there are for the Great Wheel's planes (Avernus). And it's because the planes from 4e are better designed as adventuring locations, and thus better for D&D.

I don't care if you like the Great Wheel, liking a cosmology doesn't make it well designed for the game.

They were both bad. 4e shouldn't have replaced it, and neither should 5e. Reverse them both, and you're back the Great Wheel.

I forgot about Eberron, but its always been an exception to these things.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

There was also quite a bit of metaplot, but I know you don't like that either.

Because metaplot has proven that it's definitely bad for TTRPG settings and probably bad for other media.

And metaplot isn't setting. It's sometimes adventures that take place there, but it isn't the setting itself. Metaplot ruins settings. That's not the same thing as being a setting.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Sure. Same could be said for your preferences. Subjective right?

I prefer Eberron's cosmology to any other official D&D cosmology. I think the World Axis is better designed for D&D because it was designed for adventures to take place there. What I like and what's good for D&D are different things. I recognize the difference.