WotC WotC needs an Elon Musk

[Azzy]

The problem is that what you find to be interesting is not what I might find to be interesting. Let's take the Forgotten Realms. The 1e version was fun. Then along came 2e and the Avatar Crisis and it became a lot more interesting.

The whole Times of Troubles turned me off hard to FR.

 

[Faolyn]

I will never get over the juxtaposition of:

1) Numenera's overall vibe, concepts and ideas, which were astonishing, cool, wild, modern and just really rocking.

2) Numenera's default setting, which was basically just bog-standard "medieval fantasy" (in the same sense D&D is) with a few bits of super-tech or high-tech laying about. Nothing amazing, nothing cool, just really weak.

It was like two entirely different people wrote them, but the reality is, both those people were Monte Cook. Ah the Duality of Monte.

Numenera, sadly, falls apart quite easily. Cool setting supposedly based entirely around discovery and exploration, with no rules to support discovery or exploration--but lots of rules to support combat, which the game is supposedly against. Cool monsters, but they're so mysterious that it's difficult to do much with them other than to fight them.

 

[Faolyn]

I don't think that is the line you want to draw here. Real people can be attacked by real people. Real people can be eaten. Having a villain attack a PC is generally OK. Having a great white shark threaten to eat a PC is generally OK. Having someone be abused by an evil fae or an undead would not make it OK.

But that is where lines and veils come in.

But for the big things, like rape? That's something that doesn't have to be put into an official book because it doesn't actually add anything to the game as a whole.

 

[jgsugden]

But that is where lines and veils come in.

But for the big things, like rape? That's something that doesn't have to be put into an official book because it doesn't actually add anything to the game as a whole.

I would draw a line here.

How do we approach rape in tv, movies, and books? The answer should be either that we DON'T, or we approach it with maturity, respect and caution. What is maturity, respect and caution? It starts with: Don't throw it in - but if it has a purpose, consider if it is an acceptable use.

TV, movies and books are storytelling. So is D&D. To me, there is still an appropriate place for the inclusion of highly offensive concepts in a role playing game, but they have to be handled with maturity, respect and caution.

Many people would draw a line that says it absolutely should never ever be included in a game. That is fine. That belief, however, also isn't going to be universally accepted. To that end, we need to consider what is the best way to address the situations where that approach is not followed. And how might we achieve maturity, respect and caution when it is to be used? With appropriate training.

Where do we get our training on how to play the game? Primarily: the books.

Does this mean every game should allow discussion of rape? Absolutely not. DMs should use session 0s and their own evaluation of a situation to decide what is appropriate for their game table. I expect many, if not most, would say it should be excluded.

Does this mean I think we should have a chapter in the main DMG about how to approach rape in your campaign? NO. It does not. Howeverm, there should be a chapter in the main DMG that trains us on how to use a Session 0 to determine what is appropriate for the group and game being run.

And I believe we should have guidance in some book to help DMs learn to approach the topic with maturity, respect and caution.

A game with the inclusion of offensive concepts is not for everyone. These offensive concepts do feed into some types of fantasy stories that some people wish to include in their games, including games that tackle historical wrongs, games that are trying to evoke a harsh world like Game of Thrones, and others. Those games are not for everyone. But, when those games are going to be run, I'd rather we provide DMs (and players) with tools to approach them with the maturity, respect and caution that a good author uses when approaching them in their works.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The whole Times of Troubles turned me off hard to FR.

It's the only thing about FR I thought was interesting, conversely.

 

[Faolyn]

I would draw a line here.

How do we approach rape in tv, movies, and books? The answer should be either that we DON'T, or we approach it with maturity, respect and caution. What is maturity, respect and caution? It starts with: Don't throw it in - but if it has a purpose, consider if it is an acceptable use.

RPGs are not TV, movies, or books. TV, movies, and books are passive--you, the audience, are absorbing what the writers, actors, artists, etc., have produced. You can choose to continue to engage or to not.

But RPGs don't have that. They are fully interactive. If there's a rape, it's not something you're watching and can flip past or fast forward through; it's something literally can be happening, real-time, to your character. And even if you throw a veil over it, it's still something that has happened to you.

Many people would draw a line that says it absolutely should never ever be included in a game. That is fine. That belief, however, also isn't going to be universally accepted. To that end, we need to consider what is the best way to address the situations where that approach is not followed. And how might we achieve maturity, respect and caution when it is to be used? With appropriate training.

The best way to include it is not in a book published by a major company.

Rape is something you can include in your homebrew or 3pp games (with a big warning), if you like. It should not be put out by WotC or another major company, especially not when they produce material also for kids.

If WotC wanted to put out a "mature gamers" line of books specifically for the purpose of including things like rape, then that's another thing. But not in the main line.

The rest of what you write--on having session 0s--I agree with.

 

[Voadam]

It's the only thing about FR I thought was interesting, conversely.

Tastes vary.

For me I found the descriptions of the Time of Troubles god activities in the 2e god books really great lore, stuff like the Nobanion/Malar showdown. A lot of good stories of gods doing stuff to flesh out god lore.

The actual ToT trilogy novels were eh for me. In particular I am not a fan of Ao which the ToT introduced, I thought Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkuul were great flavorful gods to have in the setting so I was not happy to see them killed as a background story element/novel development. Maybe it would be different for me if I had gotten the modules to run or if I had played through them myself. Blinding Tyr to make a point about Ao's power was meh for me. I liked having a mesopotamian style tablets of fate thing that gods were scheming and seeking out though.

 

[Velderan]

RPGs are not TV, movies, or books. TV, movies, and books are passive--you, the audience, are absorbing what the writers, actors, artists, etc., have produced. You can choose to continue to engage or to not.

But RPGs don't have that. They are fully interactive. If there's a rape, it's not something you're watching and can flip past or fast forward through; it's something literally can be happening, real-time, to your character. And even if you throw a veil over it, it's still something that has happened to you.

1st and only time I tried to play 3e was with a DM who thought his job was to mess with the players as much as humanly possible, including sexual assault. I quickly decided no D&D was better than bad D&D and left before the 1st session was finished. I'm sure there's a time and a place for it, but I personally couldn't give an example I'd find acceptable.

 

[Xamnam]

If WotC wanted to put out a "mature gamers" line of books specifically for the purpose of including things like rape, then that's another thing. But not in the main line.

Maybe I'm misreading them, but I think they agree with you on all of this, here:

Does this mean I think we should have a chapter in the main DMG about how to approach rape in your campaign? NO. It does not. Howeverm, there should be a chapter in the main DMG that trains us on how to use a Session 0 to determine what is appropriate for the group and game being run.

And I believe we should have guidance in some book to help DMs learn to approach the topic with maturity, respect and caution.

 

[Lanefan]

If WotC wanted to put out a "mature gamers" line of books specifically for the purpose of including things like rape, then that's another thing.

I'd love to see this; not because of the rape part (which could even mostly be left out of a mature book, honestly; though the forced-seduction effects of Dryads, Incubi/Succubi, Sirens, etc. would still need to be detailed) but because of all the other mature-ish things the game touches on but never quite details:

--- sex and romance between PCs and-or NPCs
--- the mating rituals/customs/acts of different species
--- sex and shapeshifters
--- odds of getting pregnant, broken down by species and-or species combination
--- birth control and-or abortion means and methods for different species, and how different species/cultures might perceive these things
--- effects of a whole bunch of spells if cast on someone who is pregnant*
--- effects of massive damage on someone who is pregnant
--- different means of gestation and-or birth by species e.g. egg-laying (like birds), viable infant (like humans), fully-formed (like black puddings), or ???
--- by-species odds of the offspring's gender at birth, also odds of multiple birth (twins, etc.)
--- a deep delve into what species can breed with what other species (apropos to another active thread) and what the resulting offspring might be in terms of game mechanics
--- some charts and tables to see what unexpected surprises your PC might have in its genetics - e.g. is your PC descended from a deity?

When I first heard about it, I had very high hopes the 3e-era "Book of Erotic Fantasy" would cover this stuff. On reading it I was very disappointed.

* - examples: a pregnant person dies and is then hit with Revivify or Raise Dead, what happens next; or, does a near-term fetus count as a person for purposes of the passenger limit on Planeshift; that sort of thing.