WotC WotC needs an Elon Musk

[Vaalingrade]

I'd be comfortable with a blanket veto of SA in the real world too, TBH.

 

[Xamnam]

Not a single person here is advocating for including content of that nature without explicit prior consent and opt-in from everyone involved. Right?

 

[Maxperson]

So now the World Axis must look identical the Great Wheel? That is "to each their own", just forcing your version onto everyone else?

Can you not comprehend that I've been quoting and directing you to the 5e DMG. If you don't like, bring it up to WotC, not me.

What you qouted was an explanation that the Great Wheel may not literally be a wheel. That is the only point of that text. But now you are taking it to shoe-horn things that do not exist in a specific cosmology to say that they MUST exist, and so your version being the default is just an arrangement and not making it more difficult to run anything else.

Um. No. That section is on all of the cosmologies having that list of planes unless the DM says otherwise. You should read it some time.

It says "These are the planes." and "These are the various ways that people have described the jumble of planes." Then it goes on to list all of the various cosmologies. Nothing I quoted was Great Wheel specific.

Which, as I literally demonstrated, is WRONG.

And you "demonstrated" it by declaring that what is written in the DMG isn't true. You don't get to declare that. You can opt out of it for your game, but you can't say that it isn't written that way.

They may say you can do what you want, but they certainly aren't telling anyone about how the World Axis version of the cosmology works.

Here it is....................again.

"Sages have constructed a few such theoretical models to make sense of the jumble of planes, particularly the Outer Planes. The three most common are the Great Wheel, the World Tree, and the World Axis, but you can create or adapt whatever model works best for the planes you want to use in your game."

The models(plural) include the world axis and all of the planes listed. But YOU can create or ADAPT whatever model works best for the planes YOU want to use in YOUR game.

Use the World Axis and take out the positive and negative energy planes.

Except, the argument isn't flawed. As I pointed out. It isn't an apples to apples comparison, it is an apples to pineapples comparison. May sound the same, may both be fruit, but they are VERY different.

You don't get to change what he was talking about into your pet meaning.

Except it doesn't, as explained. As, quite literally was the point of my post you quoted to try and "gotcha!" me

There was no "gotcha" man. You declared that only two types of violence were okay and I just asked if those were the only two allowed. This is a serious flaw in discussions with you. You keep trying to look for ulterior motives or hidden meanings with me and argue against those imaginary things that you find, but there aren't any of them that are actually there. I'm very direct. Each and every time you do that, you go wrong and your answer is wrong. Just respond to what I say and you'll do fine.

 

[Incenjucar]

It's okay to not like things. It's okay to like things. It's okay to want less. It's okay to want more. Some things are more popular. Some things are less popular.

I would prefer the inclusion of some elements, ideally in the OGL so I can run with them without having to be clever in my approach.

 

[Xamnam]

It's okay to not like things. It's okay to like things. It's okay to want less. It's okay to want more. Some things are more popular. Some things are less popular.

I would prefer the inclusion of some elements, ideally in the OGL so I can run with them without having to be clever in my approach.

To be clear, I was saying what I did in regards to sexual violence, not as a reply to your planar post. Love planes.

 

[Lanefan]

What I was referring to is that Bytopia is tied to the Great Wheel, because it is in the Great Wheel, but it isn't in the World Axis. Maybe you don't believe me, but here are all the locations officially listed in the World Axis.

Prime Material Plane
Astral Sea

• The Verdant Isles of Arvandor
• The Red Prison of Carceri
• The Radiant Throne of Celestia
• The Iron Fortress of Chernoggar
• Haemnathuun, the Blood Lord
• The Bright City of Hestavar
• The Darkened Pillars of Kalandurren
• The Nine Hells of Baator
• The Howling Depths of Pandemonium
• The Gray Waste of Pluton
• The White Desert of Shom
• Tu'Narath
• The Endless Night Tytherion

Elemental Chaos

• The Abyss
• The City of Brass
• The Keening Delve
• The Ninth Bastion
• Zerthadlun

The Feywild
The Shadowfell

Do you notice some missing names? Like... Bytopia? Dothion, Shurrock? These places don't exist in the World Axis. So, as soon as they say "one of the fundamental planes is Bytopia" they have staked out the claim that the Great Wheel, even if it is in the shape of a Trapezoid, is the reality of the setting. THIS is what I am talking about. Bytopia is part of the Great Wheel, but it isn't part of many other cosmologies.

Unless one takes the view that all the various cosmologies exist side-along, and-or that a given plane in one cosmology is simply a re-named version of the same plane in another (and in the case of the Abyss here, not even renamed!). That Bytopia could coexist with the Endless Night Tytherion and that one could get from one to the other via the City of Brass or the Infinite Staircase or whatever. That the deities who rule over the Gray Waste of Pluton in one cosmology are the same deities who rule over Archeron (or wherever) in another.

To me that's way more fun than making the cosmologies all their own exclusive little domains.

 

[seebs]

DnD is a game you should be comfortable handing to a 13 to 15 year old. Are you comfortable having cartoons aimed at pre-teens discussing sexual assault in them? Rape? Even as a background element?

I'm not sure I accept the premise that I should be comfortable handing the game to a 13-15 year old, but... I think my answer is roughly "if we can arrange for this not to be a problem any of them are personally dealing with, protecting them may offer advantages, otherwise, I become dramatically less sure." There's a lot of complicated questions here. I personally know people who only found out something that happened to them was considered a problem because they read media where it was referred to and viewed as a problem by people in stories, and it turns out, it was really good for them to have access to that media. So... I don't want an absolute blanket ban on things being present in media, you know?

AGAIN, the root of this discussion was pointing out that an official setting, which focused on sexual assault, was taken out/altered. No one is saying you can't include it in your home game if you really really must. We are questioning why you feel like you really really must include sexual assault, but that's mostly because you and others keep insisting and trying to argue for its inclusion.

I mean, I'm basically inclined to agree that it shouldn't be a default element of settings usually? But there are serious reasons to think about wanting things included in media, and having those things available for kids to know about and talk about. Your tone here comes across as implying that you think people who want this content in media must want it for reasons that you would feel comfortable condemning morally, and implying that it's unthinkable that people could think this content is appropriate, and I think it's worth maybe considering that if some people, especially people who have been through some Events, are saying "hey i think this content should exist at all", maybe there's a good reason and you should be a little more curious and a little less judgy about it?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Every single version of the planes is optional. The existence of a given plane in the material only matters for the purpose of a handful of game rules, which are themselves easy enough to fudge. Presenting a few defaults provides a shared story for the community to chatter about, but binds no DM. You can put every planar location in the material plane if you want. The sun is the plane of fire, the moon is the plane of earth, the shadowfell is the underdark, the Feywild is inside the trees and rocks of the truly wild places, etc.

A few defaults... except as Maxperson is pointing out, there aren't "a few defaults" there is one default.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Can you not comprehend that I've been quoting and directing you to the 5e DMG. If you don't like, bring it up to WotC, not me.

I can comprehend that when you say you are quoting, you are quoting.

Can you comprehend that if you defend a position, people will argue with you over your defense? Generally with the expectation that you won't turn around and accuse them of being incapable of reading comprehension.

Um. No. That section is on all of the cosmologies having that list of planes unless the DM says otherwise. You should read it some time.

It says "These are the planes." and "These are the various ways that people have described the jumble of planes." Then it goes on to list all of the various cosmologies. Nothing I quoted was Great Wheel specific.


And you "demonstrated" it by declaring that what is written in the DMG isn't true. You don't get to declare that. You can opt out of it for your game, but you can't say that it isn't written that way.

Here it is....................again.

"Sages have constructed a few such theoretical models to make sense of the jumble of planes, particularly the Outer Planes. The three most common are the Great Wheel, the World Tree, and the World Axis, but you can create or adapt whatever model works best for the planes you want to use in your game."

The models(plural) include the world axis and all of the planes listed. But YOU can create or ADAPT whatever model works best for the planes YOU want to use in YOUR game.

Use the World Axis and take out the positive and negative energy planes.

You seriously can never respond to me without insulting me, can you?

I have read it. I read when you quoted it. If I didn't read it, I wouldn't have noticed that it said "No being in the multiverse can look down and see the planes in their arrangement the same way as we look at a diagram in a book. No mortal can verify whether Mount Celestia is sandwiched between Bytopia and Arcadia, but it's a convenient theoretical construct based on the philosophical shading among the three planes and the relative importance they give to law and good." You know, that part you bolded? That part that was only about how the Great Wheel isn't literally a wheel?

And then it goes on to list MULTIPLE PLANES that are specific to the Great Wheel. In fact, as I have shown, Bytopia is Great Wheel specific, so you even quoted something Great Wheel specific. This is not a difficult thing here. Because the World Axis isn't just that the planes aren't arranged in a wheel, the World Axis has different planes of existence entirely. And sure, it says that scholars have arranged things to show the World Axis instead of the Great Wheel, but the biggest and single most iconic change for that cosmology is the Elemental Chaos.

Would you like to read what the DMG says about the Elemental Chaos? You always accuse me of not reading things, so here ya go.

"At the farthest extents of the Elemental Planes, the pure elements dissolve and bleed together into an unending tumult of clashing energies and colliding substance called the Elemental Chaos. Elementals can be found here as well, but they usually don’t stay long, preferring the comfort of their native planes. Reports indicate the existence of weird hybrid elementals native to the Elemental Chaos, but such creatures are seldom seen on other planes."

That's it. That is the ENTIRE entry on the Elemental Chaos, and, do you notice some... of things? I mean, you read, so you must right? Like the fact that the Elemental Chaos is located at the farthest ends of the Elemental Planes. Not that it is an alternative to them, that it only exists as part of them. Also, it says that elementals exist here, but they prefer their native planes. What do you think the native planes of the Elementals in the World Axis cosmology is? Do you think it is the Astral Sea? The Prime Material? Because this makes it clear that they AREN'T native to the Elemental Chaos.

So, that was from the World Axis, would you like me to post everything on the Elemental Planes of the Great Wheel? Well, I'm not posting it because it is 5 PAGES of material, including sub-locations within them.

So how about you stop acting like the Great Wheel isn't being given preferential treatment here.

You don't get to change what he was talking about into your pet meaning.

You don't get to declare that I'm wrong about what he said. It isn't like you have any greater insight into HIS intente than I do.

There was no "gotcha" man. You declared that only two types of violence were okay and I just asked if those were the only two allowed.

This isn't what I said. I've explained what I said, so even if you didn't understand it the first time, I clarified. So how are you getting it wrong twice?

 

[Maxperson]

Can you comprehend that if you defend a position, people will argue with you over your defense?

So you're arguing with me because I'm defending my position with facts, and not because you think you're right and the book is wrong?

You seriously can never respond to me without insulting me, can you?

There was no insult in there. A bit of frustration that you are arguing against the facts of what is written and declaring it not to be so, but no insult.

I have read it. I read when you quoted it. If I didn't read it, I wouldn't have noticed that it said "No being in the multiverse can look down and see the planes in their arrangement the same way as we look at a diagram in a book. No mortal can verify whether Mount Celestia is sandwiched between Bytopia and Arcadia, but it's a convenient theoretical construct based on the philosophical shading among the three planes and the relative importance they give to law and good." You know, that part you bolded? That part that was only about how the Great Wheel isn't literally a wheel?

And then it goes on to list MULTIPLE PLANES that are specific to the Great Wheel.

No. Then it goes on to point out that all of the cosmologies use the planes unless you change them. Then it lists the cosmologies. Then it talks about planar travel. Then it talks about planar portals. Then it talks about what each plane is about. Then it talks about other planes. Then the known worlds of the material plane. And then it's done.

At no point does it list planes and say, these are for the great wheel OR these are for the great wheel and nothing else(which they wouldn't because they've already told you they are all for all the cosmologies).

In fact, as I have shown, Bytopia is Great Wheel specific, so you even quoted something Great Wheel specific.

Bytopia the plane is not great wheel specific. Bytopia the name is what the great wheel calls the plane that is present in all 5e cosmologies.

This is not a difficult thing here. Because the World Axis isn't just that the planes aren't arranged in a wheel, the World Axis has different planes of existence entirely.

Different names for the planes. Not different planes. At least in 5e. In 4e and 3e it might have been different.

"At the farthest extents of the Elemental Planes, the pure elements dissolve and bleed together into an unending tumult of clashing energies and colliding substance called the Elemental Chaos. Elementals can be found here as well, but they usually don’t stay long, preferring the comfort of their native planes. Reports indicate the existence of weird hybrid elementals native to the Elemental Chaos, but such creatures are seldom seen on other planes."

That's it. That is the ENTIRE entry on the Elemental Chaos, and, do you notice some... of things? I mean, you read, so you must right? Like the fact that the Elemental Chaos is located at the farthest ends of the Elemental Planes. Not that it is an alternative to them, that it only exists as part of them. Also, it says that elementals exist here, but they prefer their native planes. What do you think the native planes of the Elementals in the World Axis cosmology is? Do you think it is the Astral Sea? The Prime Material? Because this makes it clear that they AREN'T native to the Elemental Chaos.

So, that was from the World Axis, would you like me to post everything on the Elemental Planes of the Great Wheel? Well, I'm not posting it because it is 5 PAGES of material, including sub-locations within them.

That was not from the world axis. That was from 5e. The elemental chaos exists in 5e's great wheel as well. It now circles outside of the inner planes "wheel."

You don't get to declare that I'm wrong about what he said. It isn't like you have any greater insight into HIS intente than I do.

I do apparently have greater insight. You've clearly gotten his responses very wrong.