WotC Responds!!!

[Pirate Queen Eliza]

Listen carefully.

1. None of you have actually seen any content yet.
2. It's only me and Kestrel on these forums who actually have.
3. We've told you what we know, and it doesn't support any of these claims about pornography, etc.

Therefore, all your arguments about porn and blah blah are TOTALLY MOOT because you don't actually know what you're talking about. Why don't you just settle down, step away from the keyboard, and wait until you actually have something to criticize before you go bugnuts? I agree that the press release was awful, but it's just a press release. It didn't actually tell you what's going to be in the book.

Let's wait a bit. We'll know more soon.

 

[hunter1828]

"I wish that were true" says the tobacco companies as they pay billions of dollars because their products ended up in the hands of children.

So do I. I grew up in a house full of smokers. Heck, as a child I was sent to the store three blocks away to purchase cigarettes for members of my family (this was way before laws prohibiting the sale of cigarettes to minors). Yet I don't smoke cigarettes and never have. Never was tempted to. I simply chose not to.
I am an historical reenactor and when in a role as a soldier or fur trader I will occasionaly have a cigar or a pipe, but this is limited to two or three times a year and never out of character.

Even children can make choices, sometimes they are right, sometimes they are wrong. And wrong choices have consequences and people should learn to accept that and not blame others.

If my mother ends up with lung or throat cancer from smoking all her life I will NOT blame the tobacco industry, but rather my mother who chose to continue to smoke even when the doctor told her she shouldn't.

hunter1828


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I'm not deleting this post but I am apologizing for posting so far off topic. It won't happen from me again.

hunter1828

 

[SemperJase]

I guess after false made-up accusations of elf porn we now get to see a dozen pages go buy while you folks falsely accuse Valar of marketing this product at school kids?

First, Valar put out the press release mentioning you can see naked elves, so take that one up with them.

Second, an underage audience is a natural part of the demographic. Valar is at best naive if they deny underage audiences would be attracted to this book.

 

[fusangite]

Bendris says,

Oh, give me a break. This example (and the tobacco companies that got busted) deliberately attempts to market towards minors. I guess after false made-up accusations of elf porn we now get to see a dozen pages go buy while you folks falsely accuse Valar of marketing this product at school kids?

Look, plenty of games are published outside of WOTC D20 stuff every year. So why don't you ask yourself why these people didn't care that they chose to produce a product for the game system (out of all possible systems) most aggressively marketed to kids?

Contrary to your accusation, I'm not saying that they are intentionally marketing this thing to kids, I'm saying that they appear to be indifferent to this question. I think questions of audience are pretty damned important when one chooses to publish something. For instance, even if it were legal, I don't think most authors of pornographic fanfic for the Star Wars universe would attempt to market it because they would understand that this was a special audience that should be treated carefully. I think the D&D audience merits the same consideration.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

First, Valar put out the press release mentioning you can see naked elves, so take that one up with them.

Nudity and porn are not the same thing. If you think it is, take it up with a counsling session.

Second, an underage audience is a natural part of the demographic. Valar is at best naive if they deny underage audiences would be attracted to this book.

Oh, dear! The Story of O! is a graphic novel! Batman has graphic novels! Oh, what will we ever do?!

Oh, dear! Lady Chatterly's Lover is a movie! Cinderella has a movie! Oh, what will we ever do?!

Sorry, not buying it. Until you see mass-media advertisement (which, frankly, no RPG gets) and possibly the lack of a Mature Label for vendors to discriminate their sales to minors (which I'm inclined to believe AV will do because of comments made in an earlier thread about such material), this is just another empty stance.

 

[SemperJase]

Re: Listen carefully.

Why don't you just settle down, step away from the keyboard, and wait until you actually have something to criticize before you go bugnuts? I agree that the press release was awful, but it's just a press release. It didn't actually tell you what's going to be in the book.

I disagree. Your company put out the press release. The press release is an official communication of your company. I have much to criticize about what they claim they will publish. If your company does not want that criticism, tell them not to publish press releases (especially if they are inaccurate as you claim).

Now after the fact, you are saying you can't criticize us because an official statement was incorrect. Too late.

Now Valar has to decide if they want to be perceived as intentionally misleading prospective buyers, or incompetent in not knowing their own products.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Look, plenty of games are published outside of WOTC D20 stuff every year. So why don't you ask yourself why these people didn't care that they chose to produce a product for the game system (out of all possible systems) most aggressively marketed to kids?

Despite this recent claim about kids being the majority of gamers and marketing (which is false even though the Core Rules tend to treat players like 8th graders with empowerment issues), the majority of players are 18 or older. Also, D&D markets on its own, which includes their own mature line of products. Do you hold WotC to this same line of scrutiny? Don't their mature products also appeal to younger gamers? Are they not guilty of the same misdeeds you now thrust upon Valar?

Contrary to your accusation, I'm not saying that they are intentionally marketing this thing to kids, I'm saying that they appear to be indifferent to this question.

As my previous post indicates, this has yet to be seen. One press release does not a corruptor of children make.

I think questions of audience are pretty damned important when one chooses to publish something. For instance, even if it were legal, I don't think most authors of pornographic fanfic for the Star Wars universe would attempt to market it because they would understand that this was a special audience that should be treated carefully. I think the D&D audience merits the same consideration.

Actually, I don't know about Star Wars, but there are no less than two "adult" versions of Star Trek. There's even one for Flash Gorden. I'm not too worried about these getting into the hands of children any more than I'm worried about anything else of that sort (which, of course, shouldn't get into a child's hand).

By the same merit, when you go to a comic book shop, you don't find Druuna or Heavy Metal on the shelf next to the X-Men or Richie Rich.

And I've only seen one out of over a dozen gaming stores that put the Book of Vile Darkness amongst their other d20 products (and they had it wrapped in plastic).

So, yes, it is indeed your accusation that is rediculous; It's a shout of doomsday before the facts are known to justify it.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Re: Re: Listen carefully.

Now Valar has to decide if they want to be perceived as intentionally misleading prospective buyers, or incompetent in not knowing their own products.

Didn't Wizards do similar concerning the Book of Vile Darkness?

Why, yes, I think they did...

Guess WotC is misleading or incompetent.

 

[Gothmog]

Origianlly posted by SemperJase:

"I wish that were true" says the tobacco companies as they pay billions of dollars because their products ended up in the hands of children.

Originally posted by fusangite:

So, if a Pokemon brand cigarettes were introduced, increases in pre-adolescent smoking could be solely attributed to the parents? Give me a break. When you produce a product for an existing market or discourse community especially one of which children are a significant component, you do have some responsibilities. I don't see any sign from the publishers that they have a sense of those responsibilites. This product should not be associated with D&D -- period.

Really bad analogy guys. Cigarettes are targeted at a young demographic, unfortunately. Also, tobacco is addictive- many studies concluding it is one of the three most addictive drugs known to man. Smoking can easily be traced to such problems as lung cancer, emphysema, etc. If the law says that tobacco cannot be sold to persons under 18 years of age, and the merchant or maker of that product violates that law, they are held criminally liable.

This is a game book. It is not addictive, nor does it cause health problems. From what I have read about this product, it seems that it will be targeted at mature audiences (17+ at the least). It would probably be best if it had the same disclaimer the BoVD did, requiring the buyer be at least 17 years old. Any retailer worth anything will check IDs to insure that this is upheld. If a kid gets his hands on this book, then yes, maybe a merchant was lax in his sales. Criminally liable? Probably not, although it depends on local laws. But more likely is the situation that someone older than the kid bought the book, then intentionally or unintentionally allowed the kid to have access to it. That is not the publishers fault in either case- it is the fault of the parent not checking up on their kid. Parents who find a child with this book should take the opportunity to talk with their child, and help them understand what is going on. Simply making a knee-jerk reaction to this book and accusing the publisher of wrongdoing is irresponsible.

 

[fusangite]

Despite this recent claim about kids being the majority of gamers and marketing (which is false even though the Core Rules tend to treat players like 8th graders with empowerment issues), the majority of players are 18 or older.

Re-read my post. Where do I say that kids are the majority. What I said was the majority start as kids.

Also, D&D markets on its own, which includes their own mature line of products. Do you hold WotC to this same line of scrutiny? Don't their mature products also appeal to younger gamers? Are they not guilty of the same misdeeds you now thrust upon Valar?

Again, you're collapsing all "mature products" into the same category as this book. I think you're failing to appreciate how exceptional such a book is; it's not analogous nor equivalent with all that much.

By the same merit, when you go to a comic book shop, you don't find Druuna or Heavy Metal on the shelf next to the X-Men or Richie Rich.

Yes. But I don't see them with an "Archie Comics" logo on them, do I? I believe these books will have the gaming equivalent thereof.

Furthermore, as I keep saying, sexual games are not the same as and should not be judged by the same standards as other products that pertain to sex. As I repeatedly say, games about sex are much weirder and much less common and much more transgressive than books or movies about it!

Please stop trying to make this book look reasonable by comparing it to things which do not bear comparison.