WotC Responds!!!
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Bendris Noulg
First Post
Tempting...
Orcus
First Post
I find this position and attitude troubling.
First, as I see it you are both just freelancers. I dont think either of you are in the position to control the final version of the product regardless of what you write. I am certainly not controlled by what my freelancers turn in. If they didnt do it like I want it, I can send it back or change it myself. Thats why you are the writers. I am the producer. So I dont buy into the idea that because you have seen the manuscript you know the final result. You can give us the intent of the AUTHOR. But the product will be published by the PUBLISHER, and their intent should be in the press release. So you cant disregard the press release.
As I see it, this product right now has two faces: the press release and your comments. I can't trust the author that their text will remain intact, despite the fact that your posts are clear and indicate a product different than that implied and promoted by the ad copy.
The face presented by you seems reasonable and not really that objectionable for the most part.
The face presented in the press release is nothing more than explotive crap with little redeeming value aimed purely at a juvenile and prurient interest in the topic.
We have every right to judge the product based on the press release regardless of your assurances since (unless I missed something) you cant promise me that what you write will be the actual product or that other stuff wont be added to your writing beyond your intent.
So at this point, I dont think criticisms of the product based on the press release can be dismissed. We do have something to criticize--the stated intent of the Publisher.
Was it a crappy press release? Yes. Should it be redone? Most likely. But until that time, that release is a statement of what the book will be and we can judge it.
Clark
Bendris Noulg
First Post
Just remembered something that I want to add here (enough that it woke me up just as I was falling asleep): Epic Adventures is no longer published, but it was also a graphic magazine that featured Erotic Fantasy. It was a direct competitor to Heavy Metal. It was published by Marvel.
jdavis
First Post
Re: Re: Listen carefully.
I don't think I have agreed with any of your points or statements in this thread yet, matter of fact I am most likely on the exact opposite side of this argument that you are, but this I can agree on. This press release was so very bad and so very contrived to get exactly this sort of reaction, if that's not what the book is about then they shouldn't of said that's what the book is about. Almost every problem and arguement that has sprung up over this topic has centered around what that press release stated would be in the book. I don't agree with the people screaming porn and "what about the children" but they do have a point on the press release. It makes it look like this is a official sanctioned book based on adolescent fantasies about elf sex and that is just silly, it goes on and on about fetishes and even mentions a occult church, when you release statements like that then you should expect reactions like they are getting. I know the two people involved who have posted here have both disagreed with the press release and I have a feeling that this book will not be anything near as wild as it is being pictured in some people's minds around here so I am not worried about it corrupting the youth or hurting D&D, the press release has done more damage to D&D than the book could ever do as it has brought into contention the rules that second party games are governed by not to mentioned portrayed gamers in a very odd light.
This isn't about porn or ruining D&D's reputation as both of those arguements are sad jokes. I can find better porn for free in under 30 seconds on the web and worse graphic material is shown on HBO almost every night of the week, but more important any 12 year old kid with half a brain can find the porn just as easily. As porn this is the equivalent to kids flipping through a Victoria Secrets catalog, as far as the rules presented go well we have not got one single clue to what those will deal with so that goes out the window, that wasn't even covered in the bad press release. If it was going to be in bookstores on the shelves then I might give a twinge of worry but I doubt it will be that big of a publication. (Oh and just so you know my Book of Vile Darkness came from a display at the end of a isle at the local Books A Million, right out there next to the Players Handbook and a big sign for the Yu Gi Oh card game, nobody complained or even noticed, most people don't pay D&D that much attention.) The vast majority of the world just really doesn't care about D&D and really doesn't even want to care, if you told them there was a erotic D&D book most would just snicker and point out that the geeks can't get laid anyway. This cannot hurt the D&D reputation as the reputation is that it's a game for nerds and geeks, we were more popular when we were worshipping the devil, now we are not even worth the time to lambast and ridicule. Get over this hurting D&D 99% of the worlds population will never know it exist nor will they care if they find out. People say this is a game for kids, well if it doesn't find a way to get hip and cool again kids are not going to play it, kids are attracted to it because it might be cutting edge or rebellious, the future of D&D is in it getting parents to hate it again so kids will like it. That's just the way it goes teens love to do things their parents tell them they can't do, if parents say it's ok then it must not be fun.
SemperJase said:
I don't think I have agreed with any of your points or statements in this thread yet, matter of fact I am most likely on the exact opposite side of this argument that you are, but this I can agree on. This press release was so very bad and so very contrived to get exactly this sort of reaction, if that's not what the book is about then they shouldn't of said that's what the book is about. Almost every problem and arguement that has sprung up over this topic has centered around what that press release stated would be in the book. I don't agree with the people screaming porn and "what about the children" but they do have a point on the press release. It makes it look like this is a official sanctioned book based on adolescent fantasies about elf sex and that is just silly, it goes on and on about fetishes and even mentions a occult church, when you release statements like that then you should expect reactions like they are getting. I know the two people involved who have posted here have both disagreed with the press release and I have a feeling that this book will not be anything near as wild as it is being pictured in some people's minds around here so I am not worried about it corrupting the youth or hurting D&D, the press release has done more damage to D&D than the book could ever do as it has brought into contention the rules that second party games are governed by not to mentioned portrayed gamers in a very odd light.
This isn't about porn or ruining D&D's reputation as both of those arguements are sad jokes. I can find better porn for free in under 30 seconds on the web and worse graphic material is shown on HBO almost every night of the week, but more important any 12 year old kid with half a brain can find the porn just as easily. As porn this is the equivalent to kids flipping through a Victoria Secrets catalog, as far as the rules presented go well we have not got one single clue to what those will deal with so that goes out the window, that wasn't even covered in the bad press release. If it was going to be in bookstores on the shelves then I might give a twinge of worry but I doubt it will be that big of a publication. (Oh and just so you know my Book of Vile Darkness came from a display at the end of a isle at the local Books A Million, right out there next to the Players Handbook and a big sign for the Yu Gi Oh card game, nobody complained or even noticed, most people don't pay D&D that much attention.) The vast majority of the world just really doesn't care about D&D and really doesn't even want to care, if you told them there was a erotic D&D book most would just snicker and point out that the geeks can't get laid anyway. This cannot hurt the D&D reputation as the reputation is that it's a game for nerds and geeks, we were more popular when we were worshipping the devil, now we are not even worth the time to lambast and ridicule. Get over this hurting D&D 99% of the worlds population will never know it exist nor will they care if they find out. People say this is a game for kids, well if it doesn't find a way to get hip and cool again kids are not going to play it, kids are attracted to it because it might be cutting edge or rebellious, the future of D&D is in it getting parents to hate it again so kids will like it. That's just the way it goes teens love to do things their parents tell them they can't do, if parents say it's ok then it must not be fun.
Kilmore
First Post
Just a little thought to those who want to put a warning on the book... not an entirely bad idea, but I don't really think a book called "The Guide to Erotic Fantasy" could possibly have much doubt as to it's contents, unless the words "Erotic Fantasy" are Elven for "flowers and candy".
Nyarlathotep
Explorer
Orcus said:
Uh oh... Bendris Noulg is in danger of losing his hero status and being replaced.
I must say I find this controversy much better than the BoVD controversy. At times I can't be bothered to care as I don't have plans to purchase this anyways (I still need to find Fiend Folio and Tome of Horrors). At other times I think there is a market for a tasteful book covering these topics. And at the times in between, this book disgusts me and I'm going to briefly discuss the last. (Very briefly cause I've been up 4 hours longer than I should have been reading all the threads I can find).
I have absolutely no problems with the concept of the book itself or what it proposes to cover. What does bother me is the press release (although it's nice to know that retarded monkeys can still get work in this economy) and my lingering impression that the whole situation is being manipulated for reasons I can't begin to fathom (it's kind of like being a CoC investigator I suppose). There's been some interesting comments in the multitude of threads and some interesting speculation about what the book might contain as well as some reactionary comments from people who think you can, in fact, judge a book by it's cover (or in this case, title).
I wasn't too concerned initially until I found this post by Harlock (in this thread: http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49496&pagenumber=5 ).
* Emphasis mine
Now I'm wondering if the press release was entirely intentional, its purpose being to generate enough buzz that the book will sell copies regardless of quality. It sure is starting to look that way.
Sigh... I have no idea if this post makes any sense or not. I think I may have missed actually articulating my point. Have to read it tomorrow and see I suppose.
Hey, if it works once, why not twice? Remember the pre-print Book of Vile Darkness' official ad copy that suggested rape and prostitution before freelancer Monte (who is completely without fault) stepped in to clarify that the info was wrong? Remember all of the free advertising it generated for BoVD, which has since sold very well?
Here we have official ad copy, possibly from a WotC employee in a position to have been related to the BoVD marketting, suggesting things about the book, and then the freelance authors (who are completely without fault) stepping in to clarify that the info was wrong. We now also have stated anticipation from one of the authors that this buzz is positive and will benefit sales (although I think this is just coincidental).
What I really want to know is, who wrote that press release? If this was an intentional publicity stunt, which is still unclear, then I find it highly unethical.
Here we have official ad copy, possibly from a WotC employee in a position to have been related to the BoVD marketting, suggesting things about the book, and then the freelance authors (who are completely without fault) stepping in to clarify that the info was wrong. We now also have stated anticipation from one of the authors that this buzz is positive and will benefit sales (although I think this is just coincidental).
What I really want to know is, who wrote that press release? If this was an intentional publicity stunt, which is still unclear, then I find it highly unethical.
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jdavis
First Post
Nyarlathotep said:
Uh oh... Bendris Noulg is in danger of losing his hero status and being replaced.
I must say I find this controversy much better than the BoVD controversy. At times I can't be bothered to care as I don't have plans to purchase this anyways (I still need to find Fiend Folio and Tome of Horrors). At other times I think there is a market for a tasteful book covering these topics. And at the times in between, this book disgusts me and I'm going to briefly discuss the last. (Very briefly cause I've been up 4 hours longer than I should have been reading all the threads I can find).
I have absolutely no problems with the concept of the book itself or what it proposes to cover. What does bother me is the press release (although it's nice to know that retarded monkeys can still get work in this economy) and my lingering impression that the whole situation is being manipulated for reasons I can't begin to fathom (it's kind of like being a CoC investigator I suppose). There's been some interesting comments in the multitude of threads and some interesting speculation about what the book might contain as well as some reactionary comments from people who think you can, in fact, judge a book by it's cover (or in this case, title).
I wasn't too concerned initially until I found this post by Harlock (in this thread: http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49496&pagenumber=5 ).
* Emphasis mine
Now I'm wondering if the press release was entirely intentional, its purpose being to generate enough buzz that the book will sell copies regardless of quality. It sure is starting to look that way.
Sigh... I have no idea if this post makes any sense or not. I think I may have missed actually articulating my point. Have to read it tomorrow and see I suppose.
I have stated a couple of times that the press release sounded like a WWE press release, and it really does seem similar to the kind of over the top attention grabbing stunts they pull just to get mainstream attention, (examples from Pro Wrestling, they did a gay marrage that was covered by mainstream media, a necrophelia angle that had a person simulating sex with a manakin in a coffin and a angle with HLA (Hot Lesbian Action) where the Lesbians made out in the ring and then were beaten the crap out of. None of these actually had anything to do with wrestling, just trying to create a controversy.) This Press Release reminds me of the same type of stunts done in an attempt to get mainstream media attention, the difference is that mainstream media still can be manipulated by Pro Wrestling, it' real hard to get mainstream media to care about gaming anymore. It was written with the soul purpose of getting people talking about how outrageous and controverial this product would be, without actually telling us what would really be in the book, it was a big propoganda shot with very little actual information. Without all the buzz this would of slipped past most people and we most likely would not be having this conversation, so in effect it worked, but as a backlash effect it will generate a lot of rumor and false information, not to mention looses the company a lot of respect in the community.
Kai Lord
Hero
Bendris Noulg said:
Hardly. With your little "and/or" you're trying to imply that love and lust can be separated and still qualify as erotic. Bzzzt. Wrong. Indulging in the loving act of doing the dishes for your grandmother after she bakes you some cookies ain't erotic. Not even close.
Bendris Noulg said:
Pornography isn't just a "representation" but a representation meant to arouse. I must admit that posting a definition on the internet only to then contradict it or "tweak" it in a way to serve a point is big pet peeve of mine, so I think its best to just wrap this discussion up.
Bendris Noulg said:
From GKestrel on andycollins.net, one of the two authors of the book:
"It's all about good rules, beautiful or evocative images, and creating an atmosphere of sexuality (though flavor text)."
An "atmosphere of sexuality" with beautiful and evocative images. That's not "The Miracle of Life" on Nova, its Playboy with game rules. Porn. How courageous that there are those unashamed to publish this for D&D.
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