WOTC, Scott, Where in the World is the GSL

[Baka no Hentai]

Yes, I am serious.

10% of the 3.5 players would be hundreds of thousands of people. And Paizo would be selling supplements to all of them, rather than just selling adventures to their DMs.

Remember, the money is in the Players Handbook and followon supplements. That's the reason the OGL was created by WoTC in the first place.

Ken

Just wanted to give another perspective on this...

I am not what you can consider a D&D Forum regular. I have bought most of my D&D related products from local hobby-shops and a few online retailers here and there, and have been playing D&D in some form or another for years... that being said, I had never even heard of Paizo or the Pathfinder series until I started visiting the ENWorld forums a couple of months ago. And the reason I started visiting ENWorld was to get info on 4th Edition.

It may seem like a huge deal to people here, on the Paizo boards, and on other related forums... but those places are not representative of the majority of the D&D market. In order for Paizo to get sales that register as more than a blip on the radar of a marketing giant like WOTC, they're going to need to make a huge push to get some name recognition and brand identity out there.

Please dont take this as a slam against Paizo, I certainly hope that they do well. And I will most definitely be checking out their 4E supplemental products, as I have enjoyed the previous Tome of Horrors by Necromancer. Im just giving the perspective of an observer from outside the PnP Gaming Forum Community.

 

[Nytmare]

Another view of this that I think a lot of us are missing is the fact that Paizo was just handed mantle of 3.5 in a little box with a bow on top. They didn't have to pay anything for it, they just had to wait for the dust to settle and realize they were standing at the head of the pack.

 

[Yergi]

Just wanted to give another perspective on this...

I am not what you can consider a D&D Forum regular. I have bought most of my D&D related products from local hobby-shops and a few online retailers here and there, and have been playing D&D in some form or another for years... that being said, I had never even heard of Paizo or the Pathfinder series until I started visiting the ENWorld forums a couple of months ago. And the reason I started visiting ENWorld was to get info on 4th Edition.

It may seem like a huge deal to people here, on the Paizo boards, and on other related forums... but those places are not representative of the majority of the D&D market. In order for Paizo to get sales that register as more than a blip on the radar of a marketing giant like WOTC, they're going to need to make a huge push to get some name recognition and brand identity out there.

Please dont take this as a slam against Paizo, I certainly hope that they do well. And I will most definitely be checking out their 4E supplemental products, as I have enjoyed the previous Tome of Horrors by Necromancer. Im just giving the perspective of an observer from outside the PnP Gaming Forum Community.

This. I am in the same boat as BnH. The only reason I know about Paizo is because I stumbled upon ENWorld while looking for 4e information.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

It may seem like a huge deal to people here, on the Paizo boards, and on other related forums... but those places are not representative of the majority of the D&D market. In order for Paizo to get sales that register as more than a blip on the radar of a marketing giant like WOTC, they're going to need to make a huge push to get some name recognition and brand identity out there.

The problem for WotC is that they have to compete against World of Warcraft (and the video game industry in general, which captures the most "gamer time" and the most "gamer dollars.")

WotC has to reach, entice, and educate brand new players to 4e to grow their business. They're looking for mainstream gamers. They're not looking to just "retain" or "recycle" their current D&D customer base. In fact, they're willing to alienate some portion of that existing base (creating grognards!) in order to move the ruleset forward and make it more accessible and more acceptable.

Paizo can probably do all right just by capturing that portion of the existing D&D fanbase that 4e is leaving behind in pursuit of those "mainstream" gamers. They already have all the name recognition they need with this group of gamers-- folks already engaged in the hobby. They don't have to re-educate anyone. Their business model is predominately through their own storefront, though I am sure they'll get into hobby distribution if they want it. (I doubt they need it-- not sure why they'd settle for 10 cents on the dollar.)

And they're not really competing with anyone. WotC is the 800 lb. gorilla of 4e Dungeons and Dragons, but Paizo is now the 800 lb. gorilla of 3.5e. Nobody is positioned as well as Paizo to own that market.

I believe that piece of the market is big enough to have its own "long tail."

I'm not sure exactly how long the tail is, or how long it needs to be to support a company the size of Paizo, with full time employees.

EDIT: But I am sure Paizo knows.

Another view of this that I think a lot of us are missing is the fact that Paizo was just handed mantle of 3.5 in a little box with a bow on top. They didn't have to pay anything for it, they just had to wait for the dust to settle and realize they were standing at the head of the pack.

Yep.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Depends on what you mean by "significant."

If you mean "big enough to support a company as small as Paizo," yeah, probably.

If you mean "big enough to be noticed as more than a statistical glitch by a company the size of WotC," probably not.

I posted this elsewhere - my guess is 10%. 10% of 4E sales of the core books probably means millions of dollars to WoTC. Whoever caused this delay at WoTC should be in danger of losing their job over this.

 

[Lizard]

Every post I've seen by WotC employees has hinted that the legal issues are the delay. My guess is that WotC/Hasbro wants the license to be a very specific way, which means when the lawyers say "This doesn't fit what you wanted," the WotC team has to rewrite that part, and the lawyers have to start over again to determine how the change affects the rest of the GSL now.

In other words, they're stuck in an infinite lawyer loop.

So, despite having THREE YEARS to prepare for this, and having a "plan" they announced at GenCon '07, and then an announcement of the rollout back in January (or was it December?), they're still arguing over it?

What were the lawyers doing all this time?

 

[Toryx]

One of the things I think a lot of people are forgetting is just how much the OGL changed gaming. Before 3e, when it came to D&D it was either WotC or TSR. There were a number of other game companies out there, of course, but they all created their own games and as a result there was a great deal of limitations.

Then 3e came along with the open license and D&D exploded. The result is Paizo and Goodman Games and Necromancer and all the other third party companies. Those companies would not have existed without the OGL and it's thanks to 3e that Paizo has any decision to make at all.

One of the things that sets Paizo and the other 3rd parties apart, however, is that they're not headed by massive conglomerations like Hasbro. No, they don't make nearly the amount of income that WotC has been capable of, but they've been able to exist by doing what they want to do without bowing to huge corporate requirements. That's part of what makes them great, having the freedom to create without that constant presence over their shoulder.

Paizo hasn't closed the door to 4e. If anything, they've opened the door to the gaming community wider. They're sticking with the open gaming community that WotC created with 3e and are now backing away from. And they'll be working to bring new 4e products out as well. Are they going to be hugely successful and become another WotC? Most likely not, but I think that most of the customers would be happier for Paizo to stay who they are. Not every company needs to be the biggest to succeed. So long as Paizo continues to create good product and bring customers to their web site, then they'll be well.

So long as any rpg company, 3rd party or no, is bringing players to the table, nobody is losing.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Just wanted to give another perspective on this...

I am not what you can consider a D&D Forum regular. I have bought most of my D&D related products from local hobby-shops and a few online retailers here and there, and have been playing D&D in some form or another for years... that being said, I had never even heard of Paizo or the Pathfinder series until I started visiting the ENWorld forums a couple of months ago. And the reason I started visiting ENWorld was to get info on 4th Edition.

It may seem like a huge deal to people here, on the Paizo boards, and on other related forums... but those places are not representative of the majority of the D&D market. In order for Paizo to get sales that register as more than a blip on the radar of a marketing giant like WOTC, they're going to need to make a huge push to get some name recognition and brand identity out there.

Keep in mind that at this time, Paizo only needs those people that already know them - since they are their existing customer base. And maybe they can even afford some losses, though in the long run, they surely want to expand their customer base. That might be hard. But other companies managed that, too. White Wolf or FASA/FanPro certainly did that...

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

So, despite having THREE YEARS to prepare for this, and having a "plan" they announced at GenCon '07, and then an announcement of the rollout back in January (or was it December?), they're still arguing over it?

What were the lawyers doing all this time?

Sitting on their thumbs? I really don't know.

But I don't need to know, either. I only want it to be out. Preferably 2 months ago.

 

[Stormtower]

So long as any rpg company, 3rd party or no, is bringing players to the table, nobody is losing.

Yes indeed. The game is now about keeping existing tabletop RPG players at the table, and somehow drawing new so-called "mainstream" (i.e. WoW) gamers away from WoW by showing off the versatility and openness of tabletop, face-to-face social gaming.

4E plays well and is the "new shiny" D&D with WotC's marketing muscle behind it, and I believe it will accomplish this (with a big assist from Necromancer, I hope). Paizo and Pathfinder also rock the house, and will likely help the grognard/pro-3.5E population to retain current gamers and attract new ones.