WotC's hesitation on tackling the feat tax.

[Pentius]

I have never seen a WOTC article that admitted to the feat tax issue so openly before.

My response to it is simple: If there is a problem, it should be fixed.

I'm fine debating whether there is a problem in the first place. There is plenty of room for debate. But if WOTC has come to the conclusion that there is a problem, then the debate is over and its time for correction.

The errata is simple:

All characters get +1 to attack and all defenses every X levels.
The following feats (the feat tax feats) are disallowed.


The main counterpoint to this are people concerned that people who do not look at the errata will not know about the change.

While there are people who do not look online in regards to roleplaying, the reality is our world has gone online. Its gotten to the point where I don't even get an instruction manual for a lot of the things I buy, simply a link to an online guide. The world expects people to look online for updates for things far more "hands on" than Dnd.

There will be people who don't get the memo about the game change, and they will continue to play dnd and likely still be happy playing it. But that should not preclude the fix when the fix is called for.

I don't think it's quite that simple. They didn't say it, but I'm sure they have to be wondering whether it'd be worth the internet backlash to errata the core maths. WotC gets enough disgruntled customers stirring the pot over errata to powers and feats, and fixing typos. Basically, yes, your proposed fix is simple. It has to have occurred to them at some point. That they haven't implemented that fix or something similar is a good indicator that the situation is more complex than it appears at first glance.

Again, I ask the simple question : why would they fix it, when they can charge us repeatedly for the same fixes? Don't gift wrap last year's xmas presents and give 'em to me on my birthday and expect me to jump for joy.

Errata are free, feats (and support thereof in builders) are not.

Come on...you know I'm right.

My PHB2 has 223 pages. WotC wanted $35 for it. The expertise feats took up about a fifth of a page. So I effectively paid 3 cents for them. I'm sure if I took the time to figure out how much of the builder is expertise feats, as opposed to other available tools and data, and then figured out from there how much of the total cost of DDi goes to expertise, it would be significantly less than 1 penny per month. It would take decades of buying books and using DDi for that to surpass even the sales tax I paid on the PHB2. If there is an executive at WotC plotting his nefarious plots to fleece us all for cash and that is the best he can come up with, we can all rest easy, our cash is safe.

 

[Kzach]

I'm just glad that they've openly admitted to the concept of "feat taxes", so that at least that argument can be put to bed. I hope.

Funniest thing said in this thread so far.

 

[KarinsDad]

Interestingly enough, WotC mentioned that DMs could give the players a +1 feat bonus to accuracy and to defenses as a house rule.

The question comes to mind, why would they suggest a feat bonus as opposed to just a bonus?

Is it because it auto-removes the stacking of Expertise and other feats meant to fix the issue? By doing so, it also kills a few other feats that give feat bonuses, usually conditional feat bonuses.

Because if one thinks about it, it's a math bug. It shouldn't be a feat bonus, it should just be a normal boost to accuracy and defenses, no different than the +1 every other level for merely leveling.

One quick way that WotC could fix this is to remove the +1/2 levels and make it +3/5 levels (starting at level one). This could be an optional rule in the Character Builder.

1
2 +1
3
4 +2
5 +3
6
7 +4
8
9 +5
10 +6
11
12 +7
13
14 +8
15 +9
16
17 +10
18
19 +11
20 +12
21
22 +13
23
24 +14
25 +15
26
27 +16
28
29 +17
30 +18

The inherent bonus rules for both accuracy and defenses could then change to levels 3, 8, 13, 18, 23, and 28. Throwing ability increases into the mix, it becomes (level, total bonus with revised inherent, delta compared to monsters, and core rules inherent):

 1
 2  +1    (+1)
 3  +2
 4  +3
 5  +4    (-1)
 6  +4 -1 (-1)
 7  +5 -1 (-1)
 8  +7   
 9  +8    (-1)
10  +9    (-1)
11  +9 -1 (-2)
12 +10 -1 (-1)
13 +11 -1 (-2)
14 +13    (-1)
15 +14    (-2)
16 +14 -1 (-2)
17 +15 -1 (-2)
18 +16 -1 (-2)
19 +17 -1 (-3)
20 +18 -1 (-3)
21 +19 -1 (-3) note: levels 21 through 30 might be +1 more for ability score, Epic Destiny depending
22 +20 -1 (-2)
23 +21 -1 (-3)
24 +22 -1 (-3)
25 +23 -1 (-4)
26 +23 -2 (-4)
27 +24 -2 (-4)
28 +26 -1 (-3)
29 +27 -1 (-4)
30 +28 -1 (-4)

You'll note that there are a lot of levels where PCs are -1 compared to the monsters, but some of that is a bit irrelevant. PCs have so many options by Paragon, including permanently boosting defenses with feats (and accuracy, usually with a Paragon Path, and there's the potential for +1 more at level 21 based on Epic Destiny) that it's not game breaking.

I also put in a column at the right for the core rules using inherent bonuses and without Expertise. So, -1 is a heck of a lot better than -3 or -4.

Granted, this solution is not as elegant as +1/2 levels, but players would only need to figure this out at each level (and Character Builder would calculate it automatically).


Alternatively, the game could just make it +1 per level starting at level 2 and completely drop magic weapon/armor/neck item and ability score boosts.

 

[keterys]

If you give out the +1/tier bonus... you need to also remove the feats that give +1/tier feat bonuses. If you make it a feat bonus, then you do so much more elegantly.

Then people can still choose to take, say, Crossbow Expertise for the ability to get around cover, or Superior Will for the ability to save against daze.

It being a feat bonus is, at this time, the far more elegant fix. Prior to the expertise feats, and the epic defense feats, especially the most recent essentials ones, it could have not been a feat bonus.

 

[KarinsDad]

If you give out the +1/tier bonus... you need to also remove the feats that give +1/tier feat bonuses. If you make it a feat bonus, then you do so much more elegantly.

Then people can still choose to take, say, Crossbow Expertise for the ability to get around cover, or Superior Will for the ability to save against daze.

It being a feat bonus is, at this time, the far more elegant fix. Prior to the expertise feats, and the epic defense feats, especially the most recent essentials ones, it could have not been a feat bonus.

A simple way to fix this is to have Character Builder just disable the bonuses of those feats if someone picks the +1/tier bonus option. That way, the other conditional feat bonuses are still applicable. It's a computer program. It should be a piece of cake to fix (granted, it's a computer program where fixes and improvements are being added at glacial speed).

 

[keterys]

What conditional feat bonuses are you thinking of? Hellfire blood, for example, is a conditional attack bonus but is not a feat bonus.

Everything they wanted to be able to stack with expertise was already changed to not be a feat bonus.

The system has been setup so that a +1/tier feat bonus to attack is assumed, and to some or all of FRW.

Ergo, a feat bonus is the proper response, at this point in the game. (Years ago, otherwise)

 

[Ryujin]

Funniest thing said in this thread so far.

Well there are a fair number of people, on this board, who don't admit that 'feat taxes' even exist. When WotC puts the term in one of their own articles, then goes on to explain it, It pretty much kills that argument. I say, "I hope", because some people never let logic kill a good argument.

 

[KarinsDad]

What conditional feat bonuses are you thinking of? Hellfire blood, for example, is a conditional attack bonus but is not a feat bonus.

Improvised Missile
Watchful Guardian
Resonating Covenant
Glasya’s Charming Words
Bloodied Spear
Draconic Spellcaster
Feyborn Charm
Gnome Phantasmist

There's not a lot of feats with conditional bonuses and some feats have been changed to no longer have feat bonuses, but they do exist. Most of these feats have other benefits, but they're not worth nearly as much with the existence of Expertise feats (or a house rule that makes the tier bonus a feat bonus).

 

[keterys]

Draconic Spellcaster, Feyborn Charm, and Gnome Phantasmist are expertise variants... ie, they shouldn't stack.

No one should take Resonating Covenant or Bloodied Spear, though they certainly could use the change. The system has thousands of feats, though, so at a certain point it's okay to let them wander off and die away.

Watchful Guardian: Good point. Wonder if this has been brought up for errata or not.

Glasya's Charming Words: True, though I wouldn't advise fixing it - the non-attack benefit is more than powerful enough for this to stand on its own. Most amusing, because it came out well after the expertise change.

Improvised Missile is a deeply flawed feat regardless, but its benefit was never intended to stack with Expertise (or Weapon Focus, for that matter). It's also near useless at any level where expertise actually matters. I'd not mind a redesign of this feat, but it's hardly an impediment to an elegant fix to the system that we have at this time.

Anyhow, the answer stays the same - if there are any feats that _should_ stack with expertise, whether it's free or not, they need to be designed with that in mind and errata-ed. Feat bonuses to attack and defense are a restricted design space unless WotC cleans it way up.

 

[Gorgoroth]

wrong...

My PHB2 has 223 pages. WotC wanted $35 for it. The expertise feats took up about a fifth of a page. So I effectively paid 3 cents for them. I'm sure if I took the time to figure out how much of the builder is expertise feats, as opposed to other available tools and data, and then figured out from there how much of the total cost of DDi goes to expertise, it would be significantly less than 1 penny per month. It would take decades of buying books and using DDi for that to surpass even the sales tax I paid on the PHB2. If there is an executive at WotC plotting his nefarious plots to fleece us all for cash and that is the best he can come up with, we can all rest easy, our cash is safe.

This is wrong. Up until I quit 4e for good, yesterday, I paid repeatedly for the same feats again and again. Much of the internet time I spent analyzing my character options, were flushed down in a drain of feat tradeoffs, which as everyone admits, should have been fixed by a math fix instead of a feat. Because their "feat fix" didn't account for weapliment users, multi-weapon type users, and so on...and it has taken two years and even then not all options are fixed.

Each level, we NEED to use the builder, because otherwise players will not write down 6 pages of powers updated with their latest bonuses. Many DMs, including mine, require CB-legal characters. Since there are no options for giving a single expertise away for free in the OCB, we have no choice but to keep paying DP Insider subs, monthly, until this is resolved.

It costs 12 bucks a month up here in Canada. I value a six-pack more than I value that piece of garbage software, which I had to pay for to play the game, given the requirements I -- and many others here -- have.

In comparison my PF Cleric has a two page handwritten sheet that I scribble a +1 to his BAB once every few levels. Even with all his spells, it's less hassle and error-prone than a 4e conditional bonuses blah blah on 15 powers printed out. The point is, their feat explosion "fix" is no fix at all, for a RAW Dm or anyone who plays at Dungeon Delves and so on.

The cost of the printing of the PHB-2 is minuscule next to the amount of time we spend arguing about it (that's our fault, I guess...for playing this game to begin with). Some of us just get tired of playing the D&D builder meta-game which is a game of "sink your money" and up your frustration for years on end while glaring issues are not resolved. Keeping the plethora of now-outclassed feats like Versatile expertise and Weapon Expertise (X) accessible in the builder only goes to show...christmass tree sells more builder...it's stocking stuffer cotton candy that'll rot your teeth and give you a headache before bed.

The value wasted in terms of man-hours on this and other forums debating this issue is a HUGE time sink, unless you are the sort of person who thinks corporations wasting people's time is a fun spectacle. I prefer not to play anymore, so I won't. This will be my last post on this topic, or other 4e topic. I've given my 4e books away today. Good riddance.