WotC's hesitation on tackling the feat tax.


So, according to you, WotC is fleecing us for money via the builder, because you depend on it. That is no one's fault other than your own. If you want to pay $12 canadian per month to avoid writing your own character sheet and doing your own math, that's on you. And don't try to say that you need it to make sure your character is CB-legal. CB-legal means "only stuff made by WotC". It isn't something you can't work out for yourself. Don't try to pretend that you or anyone else is being forced to pay a DDi sub. It's a sub you buy of your own free will, because you'd rather not do the paperwork yourself.

And what's this about WotC wasting our time because we argue on forums? How is that in any conceivable way something they are responsible for? Look, I waste time arguing online, and I use the builder, but these are things I do because I choose to do them. They are not someone else's fault.
 

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that's exactly

the way corporations love their clients : on their knees.

it isn't just the money or the time, it's the insult to our dignity. It's the principle. Have you no shame, or self-respect? Do you not value your spare time at all? I don't live in my parent's basement, I have a huge loft and tons of friends and a super hot girlfriend and play many games a week, etc etc.

so why DO we waste our time on this idiotic, asinine topic? Again and again?? Because, as we say in french, we are "vendus" : owned. As much as we might try to deny it, D&D creators own our imagination and spare time.

Liberate yourself from this pointless game that makes you chase your own tail, arguing the same old debates over and over and over and over and over and over and over.......play a game that treats you with respect, like a customer who has other options if they misbehave. You do have other options. I've recently come to terms with some hard choices in life, whether to continue on a path that was ultimately unsatistying, or to cut out the cruft, the old baggages...even old friends who were just not cutting it. Yeah, you're allowed to do that, you know.

Given his unwillingness to heed Umbran's warning earlier in the thread, Gorgoroth can no longer post in this thread. Please do not respond to any of his posts.

Something that some of us should have avoided doing in the first place. Avoiding fanning the flames is often as important as not spreading them ourselves. -Keterys
 
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I'm coming late into this conversation, but can someone explain to me what justifies bumping up player attack bonuses and defenses? Specifically, why is this a good thing for "the math of the game" (or however you'd like to phrase it).
I ask this as a DM who wants to keep the players in his game happy and on relatively even footing. Some of my players have expressed desire in taking the expertise feats, or the superior defense feats, but if it's warranted by the system I'd be okay with just handing them out for free to everyone.
 

I'm coming late into this conversation, but can someone explain to me what justifies bumping up player attack bonuses and defenses? Specifically, why is this a good thing for "the math of the game" (or however you'd like to phrase it).
I ask this as a DM who wants to keep the players in his game happy and on relatively even footing. Some of my players have expressed desire in taking the expertise feats, or the superior defense feats, but if it's warranted by the system I'd be okay with just handing them out for free to everyone.
It's because it becomes harder and harder to hit mobs of the same level as you. The defense feats are there because the mobs are having an easier time of hitting at higher levels than lower levels.

I just banned the feats because my players exploits the system and get overpowered characters anyway, in addition I get more interesting characters. (More weird feats that do interesting things). We didn't get higher than level 8 or 9. If I had noticed them having problems hitting I would give it away for free.
 

I'm coming late into this conversation, but can someone explain to me what justifies bumping up player attack bonuses and defenses? Specifically, why is this a good thing for "the math of the game" (or however you'd like to phrase it).
I ask this as a DM who wants to keep the players in his game happy and on relatively even footing. Some of my players have expressed desire in taking the expertise feats, or the superior defense feats, but if it's warranted by the system I'd be okay with just handing them out for free to everyone.

Monsters gain +1 to every defense and +1 to-hit every level. SO, a monster is +29 to-hit vs 1st level at 30th. A PC gets +1/2 levels. They would also normally get around +4 from ability score increase, and +6 from enhancement. that's +25. Thus a PC by default has effectively lost 4 points of to-hit over 30 levels. Some EDs shrink this to 3 points (by giving a +2 to your ability score). Expertise feats fill in that slippage, giving +3 at Epic, 'fixing' the 'math error'. A similar but slightly more complex analysis shows that even the most ideally built PC will also fall considerably short of gaining +29 on all their defenses over 30 levels, meaning at least one defense will be quite weak, and sometimes 2.

The argument then boils down to "do epic PCs really need that 3 points of to-hit or do other things make up for it?" and "do epic PCs really need all their defenses to be high or do other things make up for it?" IMHO in the case of to-hit you don't really need it. Defenses are more complicated but overall you really DO probably need some added defense.

The final dimension of the whole thing is then the fighting about whether or not the Expertise feats are bad game design and if it really is something worth getting haired out about (and basically the same for the defense feats).
 

Now, at lower levels, you're not going to notice this problem. This is why I'm not really in favour of free Expertise feats. At low levels, you don't necessarily need the extra accuracy (and some PCs are too accurate anyway), I almost want to not allow an Expertise feat before level 5.
 
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Well there are a fair number of people, on this board, who don't admit that 'feat taxes' even exist. When WotC puts the term in one of their own articles, then goes on to explain it, It pretty much kills that argument. I say, "I hope", because some people never let logic kill a good argument.

Well, I'm not sure anyone out there was actually arguing that WotC didn't introduce Expertise to try and fix a perceived gap in the system.

I've seen people argue that you don't need the feats to remain competitive. My own contention is that the gap they address was not much of an issue in the first place, and largely nonexistent at the current point in the system. I don't think anything about this article provides any real counter to either such claim.

All it does is confirm the reason WotC introduced the feats in the first place which I think was pretty much universally recognized in the first place.
 

Well, I'm not sure anyone out there was actually arguing that WotC didn't introduce Expertise to try and fix a perceived gap in the system.

I've seen people argue that you don't need the feats to remain competitive. My own contention is that the gap they address was not much of an issue in the first place, and largely nonexistent at the current point in the system. I don't think anything about this article provides any real counter to either such claim.

All it does is confirm the reason WotC introduced the feats in the first place which I think was pretty much universally recognized in the first place.

Well then you aren't one of the people I'm talking about, are you? ;)

What bothers me, about that standpoint, is that they created these "math fix" feats, which implies that they are in some way necessary, then they issued errata that makes any of the 'lesser' such feats effectively pointless. I can get +1/tier on everything, or I can get +1/tier on just charm abilities. Either/or.
 

I've seen people argue that you don't need the feats to remain competitive. My own contention is that the gap they address was not much of an issue in the first place, and largely nonexistent at the current point in the system. I don't think anything about this article provides any real counter to either such claim.

Well, I might agree with this previous to the fix to increase monster damage. Now, I don't believe it for a second.

In the last year, practically everyone and his brother in our group is playing a PC that is either an Essentials PC with a +1 to hit boost, and/or playing with a 20 starting primary ability score, and/or taking Expertise, usually at level one. Half of the PCs in our Paragon campaign are Strikers. In our new Heroic campaign , we have 3 strikers, 1 striker|defender hybrid, 1 leader, and 2 controllers. Again, half are strikers. Nobody really wants to play a defender (or at least a straight defender) and half of the group wants to play a striker.

Because Controllers really have very limited control, and every class (shy of a lazy Warlord) except Striker does little damage, and because monsters hit so much harder now, everyone is trying to tweak out every tiny little bit to hit and to damage whenever possible. It's become an arms race of getting the absolute best stuff, not much different than picking the absolute best cards in Magic to ensure your ability to be competitive.

Granted, the DM can lower the difficulty of the challenges, but he can only do this and still challenge the players if the players agree to take their arms race down a notch as well. If not, the game just keeps becoming a contest of bigger, badder, better on each side and Expertise is a major element in that concept at the moment.

If one looks at it objectively, first WotC handed out Expertise, defense feat boosts, and masterwork armor changes to the PCs (AV and PHB2) to balance out the "to hit" math. Then when the game became too easy, the concept (that many players did mention early on) that the monsters did not do enough damage was addressed (MM3), attempting to balance out the "damage" math. This shifted the balance of power back to the monsters. WotC then introduced more surgeless healing / temporary hit points (now that damage actually mattered), simpler and stronger Essentials PCs (not necessarily overall, but with respect to an average attack), and the ability for PCs to use any number of item Daily powers at any time (a major boost in versatility). This shifted the balance of power back to the PCs. WotC then introduced the concept of common, uncommon, and rare magic items in an attempt to shift the balance of power back to the monsters (this was done at the same time as Essentials, but it's pretty obvious that Essentials classes and feats are in many ways stronger and/or more versatile than many core classes and feats, so it looked like an attempt to balance Essentials right out of the box, which was a good thing). Then this year, they handed out Themes which have the potential to increase the versatility of the PCs. Again, power shift towards the PCs.

These changes go beyond just adding more feats, items, and powers to the game system. The to hit math fixes increased relative PC damage and decreased relative monster damage. So, monster damage than got increased (again by looking at the math). The game has been in a fairly constant change of flux at the major design level, not just at the individual game element errata level.

So I don't think we can just look at the to hit math gap as one game element out of sync. There were several out of sync elements, WotC has addressed them over time, and it has resulted in major shifts in many things including what types of roles are found at tables in which ratios. We only have one leader in our Paragon campaign out of 5 to 9 PCs (depending on who shows up) because even in extremely difficult encounters, we really don't need a ton of extra healing (we also only have one leader in heroic out of 7 PCs). The strikers tend to kill the foes quickly, the controllers tend to debuff the NPCs (we have one who gives the NPCs anywhere from -4 to -7 to hit the PCs, so even defender marks/auras become a bit moot), the defenders stand around taking a significant portion of the damage, and the leaders are mostly there as an emergency healing/control stopgap, so many leaders are not needed.
 

Meh, I think the picture you paint is a little bit extreme. Most of the changes you list really had very little impact overall. PHB1 OOTB was pretty heavily tilted towards the players, you needed level+4 encounters at all but low level to challenge decent players and challenging epic PCs was basically impossible if you played even close to RAW.

Most of the changes to PCs since then have narrowed the gap between optimized and non-optimized characters, but doesn't do anything in terms of making the PCs overall stronger. The average PC effectiveness has possibly even dropped some since it was dominated by certain builds. There are more options now, a few more ways get more out of specific classes, etc, but there were ALWAYS characters up at the level of the better builds today, they were just fewer and further between.

The boost to monster damage is really the most significant change BY FAR. This does improve monsters, but mostly it allows the DM more flexibility in being able to use less overleveled encounters to create interesting challenges. If a specific party is really tweaked the result would be more challenging overall. Things like Themes have a pretty minor effect. You get an extra power, but these powers are rarely BETTER than what you had before, just more interesting. Again, if you're talking about 1-3rd level PCs you'll see a bit more impact, but still not much.

I'm not really able to agree about Essentials PCs either (the 'E-martial' ones). They're somewhat front-loaded in terms of benefits they get, but they have limited chances to really make a big impact in a given encounter. By Epic tier the lack of a really robust alpha strike means even a totally optimized E-martial character is JUST about keeping up with reasonably optimized classic characters from what I can see. They'll do OK, but they certainly don't represent some kind of power boost. Their nice accuracies are good, but the problem is they simply don't have the chances for amplifying damage, so they NEED that accuracy just to try to keep up overall.
 

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