D&D 5E WotC's Jeremy Crawford on D&D Races Going Forward

On Twitter, Jeremy Crawford discussed the treatment of orcs, Vistani, drow and others in D&D, and how WotC plans to treat the idea of 'race' in D&D going forward. In recent products (Eberron and Wildemount), the mandatory evil alignment was dropped from orcs, as was the Intelligence penalty.

@ThinkingDM Look at the treatment orcs received in Eberron and Exandria. Dropped the Intelligence debuff and the evil alignment, with a more acceptable narrative. It's a start, but there's a fair argument for gutting the entire race system.

The orcs of Eberron and Wildemount reflect where our hearts are and indicate where we’re heading.

@vorpaldicepress I hate to be "that guy", but what about Drow, Vistani, and the other troublesome races and cultures in Forgotten Realms (like the Gur, another Roma-inspired race)? Things don't change over night, but are these on the radar?

The drow, Vistani, and many other folk in the game are on our radar. The same spirit that motivated our portrayal of orcs in Eberron is animating our work on all these peoples.

@MileyMan1066 Good. These problems need to be addressed. The variant features UA could have a sequel that includes notes that could rectify some of the problems and help move 5e in a better direction.

Addressing these issues is vital to us. Eberron and Wildemount are the first of multiple books that will face these issues head on and will do so from multiple angles.

@mbriddell I'm happy to hear that you are taking a serious look at this. Do you feel that you can achieve this within the context of Forgotten Realms, given how establised that world's lore is, or would you need to establish a new setting to do this?

Thankfully, the core setting of D&D is the multiverse, with its multitude of worlds. We can tell so many different stories, with different perspectives, in each world. And when we return to a world like FR, stories can evolve. In short, even the older worlds can improve.

@SlyFlourish I could see gnolls being treated differently in other worlds, particularly when they’re a playable race. The idea that they’re spawned hyenas who fed on demon-touched rotten meat feels like they’re in a different class than drow, orcs, goblins and the like. Same with minotaurs.

Internally, we feel that the gnolls in the MM are mistyped. Given their story, they should be fiends, not humanoids. In contrast, the gnolls of Eberron are humanoids, a people with moral and cultural expansiveness.

@MikeyMan1066 I agree. Any creature with the Humanoid type should have the full capacity to be any alignmnet, i.e., they should have free will and souls. Gnolls... the way they are described, do not. Having them be minor demons would clear a lot of this up.

You just described our team's perspective exactly.

As a side-note, the term 'race' is starting to fall out of favor in tabletop RPGs (Pathfinder has "ancestry", and other games use terms like "heritage"); while he doesn't comment on that specifically, he doesn't use the word 'race' and instead refers to 'folks' and 'peoples'.

 

[DariusArgent]

So I was pondering, the naming change to 'Ancestry' seems silly to me because ancestry is more family/ethnicity related.
And 'Species' as some mentioned sounds to sci-fish.
So I was thinking about 'Kin'. I think it seems fitting.

 

[Doug McCrae]

What is the in-game explanation for orcish evil?

1st edition AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide (1979):

Half-Orcs are boors. They are rude, crude, crass, and generally obnoxious. Because most are cowardly they tend to be bullies and cruel to the weak, but they will quickly knuckle under to the stronger. This does not mean that all half-orcs are horrid, only most of them. It neither means that they are necessarily stupid nor incapable. They will always seek to gain the upper hand and dominate those around them so as to be able to exercise their natural tendencies; half-orcs are greedy too. They can, of course, favor their human parent more than their orcish one.​

Orcish evil is inborn, caused by “natural tendencies” and suggested to be hereditary. A non-evil half-orc would be so because they “favor their human parent”.


Roger Moore, Half-Orcs, Dragon #62 (1982):

Orcs are like this [evil] because of the influence of their deities (discussed in the companion article to this one) and because of their own past. Sages have uncovered much evidence showing that orcs developed in regions generally hostile to life; survival was difficult...​

​

This attitude [short-term thinking] is reinforced in their religious ceremonies; no mention is made of the future beyond the statement, oft repeated, that orcs shall rule the world someday… The many tales about Gruumsh reveal that, indeed, he too appears prone to act first and think about it later…​

​

Half-orcs raised in human society, usually without the orcish parent present, have a greater likelihood of adopting a variety of non-orcish attitudes and lifestyles, but even they will have some less savory aspects to their nature as well…​

​

Like orcs, half-orcs often act before thinking about the results of their deeds, and appear somewhat stupid to other more foresighted individuals because of this. They dislike the weak, follow the strong, and quarrel with their equals. Again, this is not true of all half-orcs. But at least a vestige of these characteristics is present in nearly every one, regardless of their individual makeup.​

According to Moore, orcishness comes from three sources:

1) Environment.
2) Religious instruction (which seems to accurately portray Gruumsh's personality).
3) Hereditary nature.

In my view the article puts the most emphasis on (1), and de-emphasises (3).

The myth in the following article The Gods of the Orcs, also by Moore, doesn’t say that races were created by their respective deities, though it’s a reasonable extrapolation. “In the beginning all the gods met and drew lots for the parts of the world in which their representative races would dwell.”


5th edition D&D Player’s Handbook (2014):

The evil deities who created other races, though, made those races to serve them. Those races have strong inborn tendencies that match the nature of their gods. Most orcs share the violent, savage nature of the orc god, Gruumsh. and are thus inclined toward evil. Even if an orc chooses a good alignment, it struggles against its innate tendencies for its entire life. (Even half-orcs feel the lingering pull of the orc god's influence.)​

Of all three texts, the 5e PHB most strongly states that evil races, such as orcs, are evil by nature. The “god’s influence” here is different from Moore’s concept. It cannot mean religion and must either refer to influence at the point of initial creation (most likely in my opinion) or to an ongoing pervasive mental influence extending to all members of the race. The latter seems unlikely as it’s too powerful compared to other divine abilities in D&D.

 

[Xenonnonex]

So I was pondering, the naming change to 'Ancestry' seems silly to me because ancestry is more family/ethnicity related.
And 'Species' as some mentioned sounds to sci-fish.
So I was thinking about 'Kin'. I think it seems fitting.

Will kinslaying mean genocide.

 

[DammitVictor]

That's stupid I don't think anyone is actually doing it.

I don't pass out surveys, but I do set aside a block of Session Zero to discuss everyone's comfort level with various topics that might come up in the game-- including there's a lot of really common stuff in other people's D&D games that are absolutely no-go in mine. It's not "political correctness", it's a combination of basic courtesy and due diligence to make sure that all of my players are on the same page about what kind of game is going to be fun for them.

I just wouldn't want to inadverently hurt one of my players. I used to have one that deliberately tried to push my buttons about sexual violence and violence against children in games and I ended up inadvertently hurting him pretty badly, and while the other players generally agreed I was justified, nobody had any fun that night.

 

[DammitVictor]

So I was pondering, the naming change to 'Ancestry' seems silly to me because ancestry is more family/ethnicity related.
And 'Species' as some mentioned sounds to sci-fish.
So I was thinking about 'Kin'. I think it seems fitting.

I'm actually thinking "kith", and pretending I don't know White Wolf did it first.

 

[Coroc]

I didn’t invent the slogan, but dismissing the idea behind it because one doesn’t like the wording is nonsense on the level of dismissing black lives matter on the basis of it not being called “all lives matter.”

Well but all lives matter, and it would have been a more inclusive slogan imho (with clarification that no matter what skin color, religion, gender, age etc. they matter). Of course I do not want to dismiss the actual problem which BLM is based upon with that reply, which exists, especially for black Americans but not exclusive for them.

 

[Minigiant]

What is the in-game explanation for orcish evil?

1st edition AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide (1979):

Half-Orcs are boors. They are rude, crude, crass, and generally obnoxious. Because most are cowardly they tend to be bullies and cruel to the weak, but they will quickly knuckle under to the stronger. This does not mean that all half-orcs are horrid, only most of them. It neither means that they are necessarily stupid nor incapable. They will always seek to gain the upper hand and dominate those around them so as to be able to exercise their natural tendencies; half-orcs are greedy too. They can, of course, favor their human parent more than their orcish one.​

Orcish evil is inborn, caused by “natural tendencies” and suggested to be hereditary. A non-evil half-orc would be so because they “favor their human parent”.


Roger Moore, Half-Orcs, Dragon #62 (1982):

Orcs are like this [evil] because of the influence of their deities (discussed in the companion article to this one) and because of their own past. Sages have uncovered much evidence showing that orcs developed in regions generally hostile to life; survival was difficult...​

​

This attitude [short-term thinking] is reinforced in their religious ceremonies; no mention is made of the future beyond the statement, oft repeated, that orcs shall rule the world someday… The many tales about Gruumsh reveal that, indeed, he too appears prone to act first and think about it later…​

​

Half-orcs raised in human society, usually without the orcish parent present, have a greater likelihood of adopting a variety of non-orcish attitudes and lifestyles, but even they will have some less savory aspects to their nature as well…​

​

Like orcs, half-orcs often act before thinking about the results of their deeds, and appear somewhat stupid to other more foresighted individuals because of this. They dislike the weak, follow the strong, and quarrel with their equals. Again, this is not true of all half-orcs. But at least a vestige of these characteristics is present in nearly every one, regardless of their individual makeup.​

According to Moore, orcish evil comes from three sources:

1) Environment.
2) Religious instruction (which seems to accurately portray Gruumsh's nature).
3) Hereditary nature.

In my view the article puts the most emphasis on (1), and de-emphasises (3).

The myth in the following article The Gods of the Orcs, also by Moore, doesn’t say that races were created by their respective deities, though it’s a reasonable extrapolation. “In the beginning all the gods met and drew lots for the parts of the world in which their representative races would dwell.”


5th edition D&D Player’s Handbook (2014):

The evil deities who created other races, though, made those races to serve them. Those races have strong inborn tendencies that match the nature of their gods. Most orcs share the violent, savage nature of the orc god, Gruumsh. and are thus inclined toward evil. Even if an orc chooses a good alignment, it struggles against its innate tendencies for its entire life. (Even half-orcs feel the lingering pull of the orc god's influence.)”​

Of all three texts, the 5e PHB most strongly states that evil races, such as orcs, are evil by nature. The “god’s influence” here is different from Moore’s concept. It cannot mean religion and must either refer to influence over initial nature (most likely in my opinion) or to an ongoing pervasive mental influence extending to all members of the race. The latter seems unlikely as it’s too powerful compared to other divine abilities in D&D.

Isn't the who point why you had to play Half Orcs is that Orcs could not be anything but CE. That Orcs, either due innate aspects from their origin or Gruumsh's constant influence, could not be good nor neutral. Orc were mentally handicapped brutes who needed a god's blessing to having enough braincells to be an orog.

Half orcs, being half human, lacked the natural propensity to evil and thus were playable.

Therefor the Classic MM orc shouldn't be playable as a PC. Its stats would be for monster creation. A new statblock would be needed for Orc PCs.

 

[Zardnaar]

I don't pass out surveys, but I do set aside a block of Session Zero to discuss everyone's comfort level with various topics that might come up in the game-- including there's a lot of really common stuff in other people's D&D games that are absolutely no-go in mine. It's not "political correctness", it's a combination of basic courtesy and due diligence to make sure that all of my players are on the same page about what kind of game is going to be fun for them.

I just wouldn't want to inadverently hurt one of my players. I used to have one that deliberately tried to push my buttons about sexual violence and violence against children in games and I ended up inadvertently hurting him pretty badly, and while the other players generally agreed I was justified, nobody had any fun that night.

I used this phrase tonight.

"The groups right to have fun outweighs your right to be a jackass".

CN Kender types that steal from PCs also fit in that.

There maybe be people out there who can't handle my PG13 with Swearing game but I can't guarantee I won't swear along with the rest so they're better off finding another game.

 

[Aldarc]

I was. Thought it was stupid then as well.

I have been doing better communication with session 0 since I've been recruiting players outside my social circle.

Two prospective new players tonight. Told them PG13 with Swearing, no rape, torture etc.

So it's tamer than say Game of Thrones but it's not fluffy cloud pillows either.

I'll write a players guide as well indicating what to expect.

I'm glad that you found something that works for your table, though I am not glad that your dismissive views on this supplement have not changed. It seems wrong to dismiss another avenue for tables to have this discussion as stupid just because you have your own way of doing things.

 

[Xenonnonex]

I'm actually thinking "kith", and pretending I don't know White Wolf did it first.

Will kithslaying mean genocide.