D&D 5E WotC's Jeremy Crawford on D&D Races Going Forward

On Twitter, Jeremy Crawford discussed the treatment of orcs, Vistani, drow and others in D&D, and how WotC plans to treat the idea of 'race' in D&D going forward. In recent products (Eberron and Wildemount), the mandatory evil alignment was dropped from orcs, as was the Intelligence penalty.

@ThinkingDM Look at the treatment orcs received in Eberron and Exandria. Dropped the Intelligence debuff and the evil alignment, with a more acceptable narrative. It's a start, but there's a fair argument for gutting the entire race system.

The orcs of Eberron and Wildemount reflect where our hearts are and indicate where we’re heading.

@vorpaldicepress I hate to be "that guy", but what about Drow, Vistani, and the other troublesome races and cultures in Forgotten Realms (like the Gur, another Roma-inspired race)? Things don't change over night, but are these on the radar?

The drow, Vistani, and many other folk in the game are on our radar. The same spirit that motivated our portrayal of orcs in Eberron is animating our work on all these peoples.

@MileyMan1066 Good. These problems need to be addressed. The variant features UA could have a sequel that includes notes that could rectify some of the problems and help move 5e in a better direction.

Addressing these issues is vital to us. Eberron and Wildemount are the first of multiple books that will face these issues head on and will do so from multiple angles.

@mbriddell I'm happy to hear that you are taking a serious look at this. Do you feel that you can achieve this within the context of Forgotten Realms, given how establised that world's lore is, or would you need to establish a new setting to do this?

Thankfully, the core setting of D&D is the multiverse, with its multitude of worlds. We can tell so many different stories, with different perspectives, in each world. And when we return to a world like FR, stories can evolve. In short, even the older worlds can improve.

@SlyFlourish I could see gnolls being treated differently in other worlds, particularly when they’re a playable race. The idea that they’re spawned hyenas who fed on demon-touched rotten meat feels like they’re in a different class than drow, orcs, goblins and the like. Same with minotaurs.

Internally, we feel that the gnolls in the MM are mistyped. Given their story, they should be fiends, not humanoids. In contrast, the gnolls of Eberron are humanoids, a people with moral and cultural expansiveness.

@MikeyMan1066 I agree. Any creature with the Humanoid type should have the full capacity to be any alignmnet, i.e., they should have free will and souls. Gnolls... the way they are described, do not. Having them be minor demons would clear a lot of this up.

You just described our team's perspective exactly.

As a side-note, the term 'race' is starting to fall out of favor in tabletop RPGs (Pathfinder has "ancestry", and other games use terms like "heritage"); while he doesn't comment on that specifically, he doesn't use the word 'race' and instead refers to 'folks' and 'peoples'.

 

[Stefano Rinaldelli]

* I haven't played much 5e. Has there been a big discussion about the change to Detect Evil?

Not in my campaign. The whole alignment rule is eradicated as too stupid to be used. At the same time there are a lot of genetically stupid races. These things have nothing to do with being a racist or having a racist game at the table. C'mon. I know that WoTC is doing that to avoid problems. But to avoid problems from the stupid part of the human society is one thing. To make oneself stupid to not be annoyed by stupids is not a really good idea.

 

[Flamestrike]

Yes, in my experience D&D players solve virtually every problem with lethal force. And in the campaigns I've run with few humanoids, it's evil humans who are put to the sword.

You see this even in milqtoast adventures like Lost Mines of Phandelver. The PCs reach Phandalin and hear there are ruffians bullying people around. They go to the gang's hangout and confront them. The thugs jeer and threaten. The PCs unleash ferocious violence and slay every thug in three rounds (18 seconds).

Villager to PCs at tavern: "Did you find the ruffians who were harassing and bullying townfolk?"

PCs: "Yep. You won't have any more problems [point to a half-dozen eviscerated and scorched corpses flopped on the road]."

Villager: "Our thanks, strangers! Sit and have an ale."

We chuckled at the absurdity of it.

I'd chuckle too. And then alter the alignment section of every PC in the group that instigated such violence by removing the word 'Good.'

Same thing if the bandits were instead Orcs.

 

[Minigiant]

why should almost always evil be argument against a PC character to be of that race?

Isn't the most of the charm to play an Orc or Drow PC to fight against the default?

To be shitted on at every step and to prove the world wrong?

The point is that the "always evil orc" or "always evil drow" doesn't think like a person. They are basically a demon. And demons cannot be good outside of magically influence.

If you want to play against type then your orc or drow is not an "always evil" monster. It's a person. A humanoid who happens to come from a culture that is evil. But their brains have the possibility to understand good.

 

[Flamestrike]

You can make a world where even Orcus can become a good fellow and eventually a patron of mercy and compassion. This is the modern way.

It's also the default of DnD since at least 3E, if not earlier.

Pretty sure even 1E had examples of celestials and fiends changing alignment. 3E definately did, 2E Planescape had some examples of it, and it's expressly the case in 5e as well.

 

[Flamestrike]

And demons cannot be good outside of magical influence.

Thats not true.

Plenty of outsiders have changed alignment in every edition of the game. Heck, Erinyes (an entire species of Devil) were all once angels as is Azazel the Devil prince who rules the 1st plane of Hell. Grazzt the demon was once a Devil. And so forth.

It's rare, but it does happen. Canonically even.

 

[SavageCole]

Isn't the term orc something Tolkien borrowed from ancient literature that basically equates to "corpse demon"? At the end of the day, this is all a game of make believe, so people get to do whatever they want in their games. Strikes more of misguided virtue signaling to me.

 

[Minigiant]

Thats not true.

Plenty of outsiders have changed alignment in every edition of the game. Heck, Erinyes (an entire species of Devil) were all once angels as is Azazel the Devil prince who rules the 1st plane of Hell. Grazzt the demon was once a Devil. And so forth.

It's rare, but it does happen. Canonically even.

I didn't say outsiders change change alignment.
I said demons can't turn good outside of magical influence.

Thepoint is that always chaotic evil orcs are not people. They cannot comprehend themselves being good. Because they are basically demons made of natural flesh and bone. You cannot convert a LOTR orc to good without magic. There is no changng their mind with words. You need straight up magic. That might not even work without divine intervention from a god or a divine artifact.

 

[kudolink]

Ok, let's try another way to show how confused is the approach to this game from those that are criticising it with the same metrics we use for the real world.

Let's play... Carburators&Circuits!
In C&C you choose a car brand and a car type.
We have, for example:

• a "dwarven car": sturdy but with less steering power
• an "elven car": great speed but easy to wreck
• an "orc car": built to crash on other cars and win by being the last standing car

The dwarves and the elves and orcs are equal people! At least in potentiality: then upbringing, location, family, peers... etc. Well, they are good or bad based on what they do of themselves and their possibilities. It does no difference in C&C! We don't even paint dwarves as short, or orcs as green! Everyone is/can be the same! (C&C is the utopic no-racism universe)
Back to our racing game.
Now, your car has 6 stats: Strength, Dexterity...

Ok, now it's not "races" anymore. Now it's CARS.
Please, go on with your argument.

Do you understand the difference??? CHARACTERS ARE NOT PEOPLE - NOT EVEN FICTIONAL PEOPLE!
Characters are a narrative exploit to be able of collectively tell a story. Period. If I switch them with something else, which I can do EASILY, this whole discussion disappears faster than my wizard casting Misty Step with his bonus action.


Bonus content:
Almost everyone that put some interest in Tolkien learnt he was racist and ultra right winged. Trying to extend that to us because we liked his books is quite the stretch: he never wrote in the books "orcs are bad because they are asian".
Then let's go after everyone that likes Alice in Wornderland because Lewis Carroll was writing love letters to a 12 years old girl trying to get her to marry him, which Alice may be inspired to.

 

[Cadence]

The intro to the "Ancestry and Culture" product asks " Have you ever wondered why there are half-elves and half-orcs in your favorite fantasy roleplaying game, but not half-tieflings, half-dwarves, or half-gnomes? "

My answer is a no for the last two... I'm assuming the inspiration for half-elves and half-orcs is Tolkien so that never struck me as odd (except that they were so common). Is there any literary source that uses a half-dwarf or half-gnome? Is there a good reason not to have had Tiefling just an overlay on the other races?

 

[kudolink]

This seems very glib. It treats the operation of physical aspects of the world on the same moral level as how we think of people.

The word "fantasy" does not just wipe away the moral character of the resulting stories.

No, people clearly understanding that all those things are fine only if confined in the game, do.

As when I watch The Godfather, because I enjoy those actions because they are confined in the movie.
Or when I play a game of shooting: because I like weapons confined in the videogame. (I can't even touch a weapon in real life, as much as they upset me).