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[jdavis]

Hello All:

Ok, I think we may have actually reached a consensus. It seems I have been too caught up the Will Save, and the Uncanny Dodge, and Sport as a calss skill.

Perhaps I gave these advantages too much weight as compared to the feat losses. In the grand scheme of things, I've see the fighter's will save surpass the wizards in two levels of DD - and that seemed pretty rough. I guess, in the combat's we've faced, the monsters DID often come to attack us, once the melee began, and Thaqt's when the DD used his ability - so the lack of mobility, although not ideal, was less of a deterrent.

On the flip side, I hope some of the things I have illustrated here has given players and DMs pause about the veracity of PrCs being balanced. Forget about Dwarven Defender, just PrCs in general I have seen significant amount of PrC's with mutiple strong saves, of aggressive BAB progression, or "front loaded" abilities that allow characters to gain significant advantages, especially if the pre-reqs are "easy" (Like Holy Liberator: CG, 5 ranks Diplomacy and Iron will).

Jdavis: to answer one question, it's not that we started with a high level campaign, it's that Character death has occured, and the player wanted to bring in a new character, rather than raise the old one. Level 1 is not appropriate

drnuncheon: Actually Mary Sue's have been defined at beign the best at everything, to merely being competent at everything. I split the difference, by saying they are "good" at everything.

In any event, I've defended (dwarvenly, I might add), my position to my contentment, and would liek to thank hong and jdavis for sticking in there with me...and everyone else to took up a position. Maybe I will look with less dislike on PrC in the future.

Thanks guys!

I always love a good discussion, and I learned a lot myself. We have had the same problem with people bringing in new characters when the old ones die or retire, that was one reason that we use a house rule that says that a new character strts one level lower than the lowest character, it keeps people from changing up for power reasons, it is very rare that a character is forced into being dead forever, it's almost always the players choice if he wants a new character or wants the old one resurected. What gets me is that even the best meaning players end up doing that when they make high level characters from scratch. If any one out there has a method for controling those problems I'd love to hear it, you just can't make somebody take a level one character into a high level campaign, but you know there will be some abuse of character creation.

 

[the Jester]

Personally when I create a prc I always try to ask myself why someone would stick with their base class instead. No prc should be so good or get everything so that there's no reason to take your basic levels.

Sorcerers make this a problem of course.

 

[Plane Sailing]

When setting up my current campaign (which has been running since 3e came out) I made it clear from the outset that I was going to have some campaign-specific prestige classes, and that they were all associated with particular regions or nationalities or groups. I decided to go with the original DMG idea (as I understood it). To put this in context, many of the character classes are specific to particular regions or nations in my campaign world, rather than the homogenous default situation in Greyhawk or FR. It was one of the "distinctives" of my campaign setting.

Since then, a few prestige classes have appeared in additional books which fit into my campaign mythos -
the duellist (which became my "Sword Coast Duellist"),
the Alienist (ties in wonderfully with my cthuluoid/illithid background)
the iaijutsu master from OA (which become my "Sword Saint"),
the "tamer of beasts" which became my "Beastlord")
The Soulknife & Pyrokineticist (as revised by Bruce Cordell).

That is about it.

One thing that I'll change in a future campaign is to eliminate almost all pre-reqs for prestige classes and make them gainable only through role-playing and completion of appropriate trials set by a particular group. This will help to embed them in the fabric of my campaign better, give nice role-playing goals and stops the (IMO) pernicious need to plan out a character from level 1 in order to get a particular class at a particular time. I'd much prefer the situation where Fred the wizard comes across a secret society and has to pass their acceptance rituals (which might include several tests of endurance and knowledge) without him saying "bother, if only I'd taken 'endurance' as one of my feats. Maybe in three levels time".

From reading this thread I know that this won't jibe well with many of you, but I think it will be a workable and attractive way of handling prestige classes in my campaign and I thought I'd share it.

To the issue of higher level characters - someone mentioned that paladins and rangers didn't have much to look forward to - I'd have thought that Holy Sword/Dispel Evil and Polymorph Self respectively might be appreciated

Seriously though, it seems to me that one of the benefits of higher level is the higher level challenges which are faced. Of course, one area where there could be a lot of worthwhile rules support is to help design and play a game which integrates high level PC's into politics - especially building organisations and armies, attaining fiefs, all that sort of thing. The chance to become "movers and shakers" in the campaign world. (any designers working on this?) As it stands, high level characters with nigh godlike powers end up fighting fearsome beasts which have not bothered decimating the world until PC's reached high enough level

 

[Plane Sailing]

Another thought BTW. I've noticed that high level play is *far* more dangerous for PC's than it used to be in earlier editions.

In fact, the level of risk has seemed to be pretty consistent so far throughout the campaign (PC's are currently between 7th and 10th level inclusive). Increased saves, big damage (especially on critical hits) can finish off high level characters as quickly as low levels.

In one sense we are still learning about this - I realised that it is the reason that there have been so many deaths or near-deaths in my campaign at higher level... the players are all used to 1e/2e characters at about level 8-10 which were pretty hard to kill in just a round or two; that simply hasn't proved to be the case in 3e At low level they were quick to retreat or size up combat situations, now they are likely to charge in (recognising how much stronger they are) and get marmelised (through not recognising how strong their new, high level monsters are!)

Cheers

 

[hong]

Another thought BTW. I've noticed that high level play is *far* more dangerous for PC's than it used to be in earlier editions.

Welcome to the club.

 

[Endur]

Comparison: L20 Barbarian vs. L10 Fighter/L10 Dwarven Defender


Hit Points: Barbs win slightly
Barbarians have 20d12 vs. 10d12 + 10d10

Saving throws: DD wins slightly.
Barb DD
Fort +12 +14
Will +6/+9 +10
Reflex +6/+10 +6

The L20 Barbarian can rage 6 times a day without getting tired so he will always have his rage bonus to will save in a combat situation. He also has a +4 bonus against traps.

Greater Rage vs. Defensive Stance: Barbarian Wins
+6 Str bonus vs. +2 str bonus
+6 con bonus vs. +4 con bonus
+3 will save vs. +2 resistance bonus to all saves
-2 ac penalty vs. +4 ac dodge bonus
can move vs. can't move
Babarian isn't tired after raging. DD takes -2 str and loses all bonuses if he moves.

AC bonus: 10th level DD gets +4ac : DD wins

Feats: DD wins slightly
20th level Barbarian has 7 feats + racial
10th ftr/10th dd has 13 feats + racial, but some are wasted feats

Skills: Barbarian wins
4 points vs. 2 points a level
Barbs get listen, wilderness lore, intimidate and fighter type feats
DDs get listen, spot, sense motive, craft: good feats, but hardly ever have skill points to take these skills.

Uncanny Dodge: Barbarian wins slightly
20 levels vs. 10 levels, most important stuff is in the first 10 levels

Barbarians can't be lawful; only restriction. DD's have to be dwarves, have to have +7 BAB, have to be lawful, have to have 3 almost useless feats, Dodge, Endurance, and Toughness

I think a fair case can be made that a pure Barbarian character is a better choice than a DD/Fighter. And how many people do you see playing pure barbarians, anyways? Once you add in multi-classing, it just gets worse.

The DD is great when you know the enemy plans to come to you and stomp right over you. But the rest of the time, he is just a sub-optimal fighter.

Tom

But I'll use a quick DD exmaple, sticking with just the core 3E books (PHB, DMG, MM1).

A L20 fighter has a +6 will save, a L10 fighter/L10 DD has a +10 Will save. Dwarven defender has Spot as a calss skill, and no matter what you INT is I'd arther have it, than not. They also have Sense Motive to offset Bluff.



DD has uncanny dodge, so invisibles and flatfootedness no longer cost him his DEX (or dodge bonuses). He has Damage redcution that is 2x what a L20 Barbarian has, and he has +1/hp per level as compared to a straight fighter. And a generic AC bonus that's significant, and "on" all the time.

For this he must take 1, arugably 2 poor feats, and be Lawful.

Compare this to a 10/10 Fighter barbarian (and we'll say defesive stance is roughly = rage)

BAB = the same,
HD = the same,
Align pre req's Lawful vs Chaotic = the same.
Uncanny Dodge = Same

Positives for Barbarian
Feat pre=reqs DD cost's 3 more.
Move = Barbarian get's +10'

Positive for the DD
Saves = DD+4 on will.
Damage Reduction = DD get 6/-, L10 Barbarian get's none.
AC = DD get's +4 AC.

a wash maybe?
Skills: Barbairan +2 pts a level, DD Spot as a class skill: edge ? Leaning twds DD.

What I am trying to illustrate, is that the Bonus will save is somethign fighter's need to beef up - and the DD grants this without giving up BAB. The fighter's class skills need help, and the DD does this. And fighter can really get hurt if sneak attack damage gets heaped on them, uncanny dodge with DD helps this. Their "touch AC" is pretty, low DD helps this. Finally, since fighter types tend to soak melee damage, DD gets significant damage reduction.

So, in giving up the feats, the fighter type get's good at the stuff that fighter's generally are not good at! Avoiding sneak attacks, makign will saves, and having high Touch ACs. they becomg "good" at fighting, and "good" at *many* other things. Notice that you cannot get Damage reduction at all as a L10 Barbarian!

So I submit that the DD is better than multi-classing as a fighter/barbarian, and the DD has a tendency to give the fighter patches for his weak points. Thus the "Mary Sue" comment

Will reply to your ECL post at a later date

PS Magic Vestments is a L3 cleric spell which give +1 Enhcancement Bonus to armor, per 3 caster levels. At L15, that's +5. It lasts 1 hour/level. Since I states I was not being cheaty, I did not have the casting cleric in question use a "Bead of Karma" form the "Necklace of Prayer Beads" to increase the caster level by 4, which would allow a L11 clercic to grant this +5 bonus. [/B]

 

[incognito]

Endur: you are a little conspicous in that you forgot to include DR 6/- for the DD, and 3/- for the Barb. Edge: DD.

So you're saying +4AC, Extra 3/- DR (or 6/- DR), and +2 Fort save, +4 Will save, and Spot as a class skill ALL THE TIME makes a DD/fighter Sub-optimal as compared to a Str8 fighter or Barb?

I must disagree. The fighter failed his will save at level 9 and is dead. The barbarian got dropped while raging 'casue his AC was poor and is also (instantly, possibly) dead.

Advantage...life.

 

[jdavis]

Endur: you are a little conspicous in that you forgot to include DR 6/- for the DD, and 3/- for the Barb. Edge: DD.

So you're saying +4AC, Extra 3/- DR (or 6/- DR), and +2 Fort save, +4 Will save, and Spot as a class skill ALL THE TIME makes a DD/fighter Sub-optimal as compared to a Str8 fighter or Barb?

I must disagree. The fighter failed his will save at level 9 and is dead. The barbarian got dropped while raging 'casue his AC was poor and is also (instantly, possibly) dead.

Advantage...life.

And the Dwarf got picked apart by distance weapons and spells because he had his feet glued to the floor, luckily with him having spot and 2 skill points to put into it he saw it coming, he's dead too now. The thief snuck out the back when nobody was looking, yes he was a coward but Advantage Life.

 

[incognito]

jdavis: What Thief?

I could just as easily argue, the Barabrian charged in to attack opponets tougher than him.

And you tell me who is more liekly to resist the spells. the Character with the +10 will save, and the the +2 bonus to ALL saves, or the charater with the +9 will save.

 

[Regdar]

Now it's just getting petty.

Bah Regdar uses basically every prestige class plus Regdar's own and has yet to have a problem. Yes there will be players who will take them for effects and yes there will be players who actually take them for conception. All the number crunching going on here by PrC haters seems to show that a few DM's have control issues. Why is it so bad to let players have options. BTW Regdar runs the majority of the time, so this isn't from a players stand point. Does this really have to be such the contest of wills?

As for the initial question, Regdar seems way out of the range on the demographic, 20+ year player, yet under 35, anywhere from 4 to 12 players ranging from 3 months to 3 years on game time, highest level being 28th in 2E, 26th in 3E (Due to running Playtest group from beginning to end).